Now, I'm not putting down all their answers. But there are a good number that are highly suspect. Just don't tell them about what you suspect makes them suspect. That's where the fangs and claws come out.
So recently I tried again. I started my note with my previous experiences. Told them what I had a problem with. And asked for a senior editor to discuss with. I got, you guessed it, more of the same attitude. So, I've decided to address them here. I will post their words, and will show my responses within [[ here... ]]
I have a problem with the liberties they take using scripture in their claims. And the conclusions they draw are not nearly as sure as they present them. They present answers that fit their agenda of theology and expect you to accept it prima facie. And as all my communications has revealed, prima facie means you can't question their answers. So lacking all the posts I've made to them through the years, I'll stick to this one article and not address the attitude of the place any more after this. I only do it here, so that I can show I have tried to contact them one on one before going public with my protest.
Let us commence....[[ ]]
Question: "Is entire sanctification / sinless perfection possible in this life?"
Answer: The Greek word teleios (tel’-i-os) is used throughout the New Testament. It is often translated as “perfect” but can also mean “complete,” “full-grown,” and even “mature.” The confusion comes in when various translations use the word perfect instead of one of the other meanings.
[[We are good so far. :) I concur. ]]
As an example, in James 1:4 Scripture says that we will be “perfect and complete.” But a further reading of the book shows that a better translation would be “mature,” because in James 3:2 we find that we all stumble.
[[Well, the first part is correct. Mature would be the right answer. However GQ doesn't offer any semblance of a picture of what maturity would mean and how that would not be sinless. Rather than show you two sides and explain why they conclude what they conclude, you are given a dictate of what the answer is. I find this extremely biased. BUT, in the sake of competition I will do the same thing here and just show one side, thus providing balance. :) ]]
Obviously, we cannot stumble if we are perfect. However, the concept of maturity is compatible with imperfection.
[[Which is it? Does PERFECT/TELIOO/TELIOS mean mature or doesn't it? They told you it means mature, then tell you maturity =s imperfection. If perfect is the opposite of imperfect, and perfect =s mature, then mature =/= imperfection. The very problem they explain people have with the use of that word "perfect" confuses them, right here, in public for the world to see.
This sort of liberty is taken thoughout the post in an attempt to tell you what to believe.]]
First Corinthians 13:10; Ephesians 4:13; and Colossians 1:28 and 4:12 all should be translated as “mature” or “full-grown,” both of which fit in well in each verse’s context.
[[AGREED! MATT 5:48 as well! except complete would be better than mature, which would still be less confusing than perfect. ]]
As human beings we are still bound under the curse of Adam. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God.
[[This is not supoorted with scripture. It is the theology of GQ.ORG and they impose that upon scripture. Granted it makes logical sense. So you could say someone not sinning is illogical, but what is logical about a 2000 year old dead and resurrected head of the Church? If we are to assume anything we don't understand or haven't witnessed is impossible, then we might as well throw the resurrection out first, right? That's a very silly standard to apply.
Scripture doesn't say you will be bound forever, it says you will be freed from the curse by His dying on the tree.
| Gal 3:13 | Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" -- |
All things considered, without any verse, OR conversation being found in the Bible that says you will be bound to the curse of Adam, for them to imply it's prima facie fact, offer no support for the claim, they prey on the innocent and attempt to subversively influence their studies. ]]
The Apostle Paul scolded Peter for favoritism (Galatians 2:11-13).
[[And, showing favortism, or making a mistake is a sin? No wonder it's presented as you will sin under Adam forever by GQ.org. I'd suggest that we don't have the pay grade to judge if Peter sinned or not. This is just a fear of sin based on a sin-centric theology, that teaches against 1 John 4:16-18/gal 5:6.]]
Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15).
[[He also said himself and others were perfect. Or as GQ.org puts it, mature. So, I guess finding out what Perfect or mature looks like would be important. From the sins that Paul had committed, is it hard to imagine him considering them more rank than all other people?]]
Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were not perfect. [[Well, that's a lie. Paul said he was perfect 2.5 vss after they will present he said he didn't consider himself to have achieved that yet... John said he walked in the light AS HE DOES, and there is no darkness in Him. If you walk in the light AS HE DOES, either you do not sin, or HE does sin. I would suggest that rather than face the possibilities of the wording in these author's works, they just searched for anything they could use to project their theology upon the less learned and innocent. ]]
How could you or I claim anything different?
[[Scripture says we are to be made perfect/mature. Col 4:12 Jam 1:4 Paul says we are to be presented by Him to Christ at His return as perfect. Col 1:28 So, if you want to preach what they Bible says, why would you deny these claims?
If they are going to accept that PERFECT means MATURE, then they should stop bouncing around from the modern English use of Perfect, they condemn in their "exegetics" as impossible, and read the verses with the MATURE or finished concept that we can agree upon?
We might also see if we can find an explanation of what this word would mean in the minds of those writing these letters.... May I suggest, for your consider, the definition Paul describes? ]]
Ephesians 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
These are those with Gifts to lead the church.
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service,
The fundagelicals will hate seeing that we are SUPPOSED to do work, and more importantly all that comes after this comes THROUGH this work or as a result of this work....
...to the building up of the body of Christ;
[[This would reference the Church.]]
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith,
[[This would reference the individuals of the Church.]]
and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man,
[[Here is you word PERFECT in Kjv. So, HOW PERFECT/MATURE are we to be????]]
to the measure
[[If Christ's Maturity was measured in a glass, ours would be just as full as His is.]]
of the stature
[[Not only as full, but it would be the same size as...]]
which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
[[[[[In case that picture doesn't work for you, point blank, FULLNESS OF CHRIST'S perfection/maturity. So HERE is your definition of Xian Maturity. Now if that would result in sinlessness or not is open for debate, but GQ.org won't debate it. So, I present it here for you to have a counter to consider to their eisegetical push of their agenda. For the record, if We are to be made as mature as Christ is, it's hard to believe that we would sin if HE does not. So either we wouldn't, or HE would.
It really doesn't matter if you believe it can happen, nor if you have seen it happen, we are discussing what the Bible reads. Remember, the Roman Catholic Church, according to fundagelical leaders read what they WANT the Bible to say, not what it says. I say we should hold ourselves to the standard of honoring what it says, not what makes sense to me. God is a supernatural, or supranatural God. What would make sense to me would be a huge step down in awareness for Him. If it made sense to me, I'm surely messing it up somehow. BUT FOR THE RECORD, I've never met anyone that raised from the dead and flew into the clouds either. So, if we are going to apply "what we understand can happen" to the rules of biblical interpretation, we should all go home, that makes no sense at all, raising and riding the clouds....]]]]]
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
[[Maturity verified, not children but more mature...]]
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
********************
True perfection will not come until the Rapture of the church, when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
[[Oh hogwash. Paul said He and others were perfect..Got Questions.org is playing word games to meet their claims here. 1 thess 4:17 says no such thing...
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
IT DOES say we are to raise in the air. It has nothing to do with maturity/perfection however. In fact, it would imply that those who were left were those made mature, and He pulled them in the air for that reason. This is a logically viable interpretation of the words. To tie them together would be like dropping a verse from Peter, into Genesis 8 and changing the meaning... It's pure, unadulterated, eisegetics and wishful thinking, not to mention a HUGE reach to cross the chasm to try to link this verse with maturity/sanctification/perfection, etc... JESUS WEPT would connect just as well. ]]
At this time we will receive a new body (Philippians 3:20,21; 1 Corinthians 15:54).
[[ What makes these verses link to the 1 thess verse? Why didn't Paul explain this up there? Because it's a reach of proof texting to make a point they believe but is no where in scripture.
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
Nothing anywhere places this as an event linked to the 1 thes verse. However if we WERE going to link it, you would see something like this....
WE WHO ARE ALIVE, would be those alive at the time of this event
WILL BE CAUGHT UP WITH THEM IN THE AIR, tie to the "our citizenship is in heaven" This is the destination ideal of a believer.
ALWAYS BE WITH THE LORD, <<< destination. (except he comes to earth for a 1000 years and we live for the resurrection, not heaven, but......details...)
The other verse says that HE will change us.
Isaiah says He changes our hearts and minds, on earth,
Eph 4 shows how much we are changed on earth, to be fully and completely as mature as Him.
So if I actually try to fit those two together, I end up with you will be sanctified/changed/MADE holy, vs perceived holy on earth before ascension. And I would contend those are separate conversations and not linked.
The 1 cor 15:54 But when this perishable
(Our mortal body...)
will have put on the imperishable,
(Rom 8:9 Spirit of God, and the flesh nature is gone...)
and this mortal will have put on immortality,
(Gal 2:20, it's no longer ME who lives (sinful nature col 2:11) but HE who lives in me (Spirit of God, rom 8:9.))
then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
(body of sin is death, body of the Spirit is life.... or according to the sin/ Spirit.. romans 8:5-7)
It's still talking about Xian maturity on earth. ]]
We will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10)
[[For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. *********
Nothing ties this to the other verses, in the order it's presented. They are totally Disparate conversations, plucked and pulled from here and there, willy nilly because they say warm fuzzy things that appear like the image they want to portray. They are not all part of the same conversation, they are arrived at from totally different destinations and piecing them together with nothing to link them is irresponsible.]]
where our works will be judged and any rewards given (1 Corinthians 3:9-15).
[[This verse doesn't even remotely connect. It's discussing your life on earth, and how you are to live it. It's discussing the works you were saved to do, the works that MAKE YOU MATURE in Eph 4. ]]
We will then live forever and reign with Christ, in sinless perfection.
[[There is nothing to link those verses together, OTHER THAN THEY MEET THE AUTHOR'S NEEDS to justify their belief... They are totally disparate in nature, linked only by agenda. HOWEVER we see that if you are WITH CHRIST as the author ends with, you do not sin....
1j 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
And that we are called to be in Him on earth. 1 J 4:16.
We see if we are born of God, we will not continue in our sinful lifestyle, and in fact we can not sin. 1j3:9.
They would retort with a pedantic argument that makes the conversation very awkward if it was the intent of the author. In short, before the conjunction in 3:9 you have a present tense, with a continuing sense to it. So the lifesyle that is built for sinning, I.E. the sinful nature, or the life before the Circumcision done by Christ in Col 2:11 as listed above. BUT after the conjunction, it's a HARD NEGATIVE, "OU" and a present tense for sin. NOT SIN.
Now, the dilemma is, the Present tense CAN have the continual sense to it, and it can not. Context defines it, not my preference of theology. So, let's test the CONTINUING theory with the present tense verbs.... Let's use common sense.... If I said, "I went into the bushes and regurgitated" in the present tense. Would that mean I was vomiting for the rest of my life? What if I went to the bathroom, or I was swimming. Of course not. The pedantic argument for that continuing to sin for ever, doesn't pass the stink test as a rule that MUST apply. And John makes MANY comments that would support it as it is written in English.
GotQuestions.org, bless their liddul hearts, try to help people find answers to their questions. But in their fundagelical roots, rather than help you work out the answers, they tell you what they want you to believe, and try to rally the troops to their way of thinking.
I find more times than not, their answers are short sighted and abuse scripture as shown above.
While I offered to debate them, and would love it on this topic. I find their agenda is protected when they feel threatened like a turtle pulling into a shell. Rather than admit to error, they would run and avoid the confrontation so no one can see they were wrong. Much like the little geeky kid, threatening to whup the heinie of the big linebacker avoids the actual confrontation...
As an example, in James 1:4 Scripture says that we will be “perfect and complete.” But a further reading of the book shows that a better translation would be “mature,” because in James 3:2 we find that we all stumble. Obviously, we cannot stumble if we are perfect. However, the concept of maturity is compatible with imperfection.
First Corinthians 13:10; Ephesians 4:13; and Colossians 1:28 and 4:12 all should be translated as “mature” or “full-grown,” both of which fit in well in each verse’s context. As human beings we are still bound under the curse of Adam. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. The Apostle Paul scolded Peter for favoritism (Galatians 2:11-13). Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were not perfect. How could you or I claim anything different?
True perfection will not come until the Rapture of the church, when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At this time we will receive a new body (Philippians 3:20,21; 1 Corinthians 15:54). We will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) where our works will be judged and any rewards given (1 Corinthians 3:9-15). We will then live forever and reign with Christ, in sinless perfection.
