The following is a person who has made a bold assertion against Ellen White.  And while I won't try to defend Ellen White, much of what I say will defend her, as I address the flaws in the argument the Anonymous Author presented.

For the record, Mr. Ms. Author, at any time you'd like to put me in my place on this topic, which is the definite "fever" and "attitude" I got from what you had to say below, I'm game.  :)  I'd love an educational debate in public on the topic.  I'll address the comments below.  The A.A. person will be in tinted background.

http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw66.htm Can Christians be Perfect, Flawless or Without Sin?

By Anonymous Author

---

BIBLE: NO – Perfection cannot be humanly obtained. (Perfection = Sinlessness)

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23  

Yes, it's true every man has sinned, woman too, most kids, even my dog, but this verse doesn't say that they will continue to sin forever, does it?  Every man has sinned, and was born with a sinful nature.  But scripture doesn't say they live with it forever, in fact it says it could be the opposite of that.

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:10

Again everyone has sinned.  It doesn't say you will continue sinning for ever.  In fact this letter says the exact opposite.  So you either need to understand this verse better, or make the other verse not say what the words in it say.  3:9, 5:18.

"The heart is the most deceitful thing there is, and desperately wicked. No one can really know how bad it is! Only the Lord knows!" Jer. 17:9, 10.

Last I checked, in the life with Christ, at some point, He's going to replace that heart of stone with a softer one.    So, while it's true you start with a deceitful heart, BIBLE says you aren't supposed to stay that way.  

"The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who are wise, who want to please God. But no, all have strayed away; all are rotten with sin. Not one is good, not one!" Psalm 14:2, 3.

I guess I'd just comment, Good thing that it's not based on OUR heart, but on HIS God's new creation of a heart.  Which, if we look at in detail would result in a heart that no longer sins.  But that's another topic...

"We are all infected and impure with sin. When we put on our prized robes of righteousness we find they are but filthy rags." Is. 64:5, 6.

If you are a mature believer, it's not YOUR rags you wear, but it's HIS body that cloaks you.  Your OT verses show the life before the resurrection well.

NOTE: Only one man was perfect and without sin—Jesus Christ


Note:  Ephesians 4 says you are to become as mature as Christ Himself was on earth.  NOT that you will have never sinned, but that at a point going forward you will be as Spiritually mature as HE was on earth.  I guess this author would argue that Jesus sinned on earth, or that this verse is a lie.  Because one of those options must be true, if you are as mature as Him but still sin.




EGW:  YES--Perfection is possible through good works.

"As the Son of man was perfect in His life, so His followers are to be PERFECT in their life. A well-balanced character is formed by single ACTS WELL PERFORMED. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. . . . In all the redeemed host not one defect will be seen. . . . " The Faith I Live By, page 44,
"Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter."  My Life Today, page 271

BIBLE: Christ has given us assurance that his yoke is easy:

"The teaching that I ask you to accept is easy; the load that I give you to carry is light." Matthew 11:30

As long as we attempt to attain a perfect character or we attempt to bear our own spiritual fruit, a Christ-like character will NEVER be an easy matter—it will be impossible to reach. However, Christ has given us assurance that his yoke is easy and his burden is light.


So, if HIS YOKE is light, why do you argue it can't happen?  That's what you do here.  To attain that "perfection" you don't do it by focusing on not sinning.  You get there by focusing on love.  the word for love, agapao requires the works, demonstrations of love/charity, or it's Phileo not agapaeo.  Gal 5:6 theology isn't important but works of faith through love.  Note the SHEEP that did the works went to heaven in matt 25's last parable.   So, if your job is to LOVE NEIGHBOR, and you focus on love neighbor, then you grow in love.  If you grow in love to the point that CHRIST COMMANDED in matt 5:43-48, what sin would you commit?  It's just silly to claim there would be even one.

Now if you fear the judgment of sin, let me suggest that in 1 john 4:16-18 it says that imperfect love fears punishment of sin.  So, your love is not yet perfected.  You should focus less on what Ellen White has to say, and focus more on what you should do to grow in LOVE.

What would that be?  In Ephesians 4, Paul says that through works, you grow in Spiritual Maturity to the full and complete, spiritual maturity that Jesus the Christ had on earth.  I guess you propose Jesus sinned?  Or you propose that Paul lied in those verses.


This assurance comes from the same Christ who does NOT expect us to recreate our own perfection, our own fruits, or our own righteousness.


I guess you never read where Jesus COMMANDED you to be as perfect in how you love as God the Father was.  Matt 5:43-48.  You are specifically backwards on this point.




He is the vine and we are the branches. Without Christ we can do nothing. NOTHING! (John 15:5)

So, if it's HIM that does all the work, why do you propose HE can't keep you from sinning?  I guess in your belief God isn't omnipotent and you are more powerful and if you want to sin and He is your power and you choose to sin you can beat him and do it.  That's brilliant.
Gal 5:16 if you walk in the Spirit you won't give into the temptation of the flesh.    As you said, it's up to Him here.  But your position says he must fail.  Mine says He's capable of success.  I'm sorry you see such a minor God.


NOTE: According to scripture, all humans are born in sin and commit sin. Hence, humans can never become perfect without claiming the perfection of Christ.




Now this doesn't even make since.  We are all born in sin, and commit sins in our lives.  But that doesn't in ANY LOGICAL FASHION imply that you will sin forever.  It just doesn't.  You are born in sin, with a sinful nature, you grow up in Christ, HE removes the sinful nature (col 2:11) and His Spirit indwells the spot vacated, (Rom 8:9) and you walk in the Spirit and don't give into temptations of the flesh, that is absent, Gal 5:16.


,
 Christ’s perfection is freely offered since the cross. Before the cross, perfection from the sinful human nature was available through faith in the future promise of the perfect Christ. The lamb sacrifices and the annual day of atonement both pointed to the future cross.


Atonement, is salvation.  This sinless thing you battle with is Maturation.  That's what that word Telios means, it's usually translated as Perfect.  Do a word study on the Greek word Telios.  If you need help try www.blueletterbible.org, or www.bible.org.   If you read romans 6:22 you'll see freedom from sin, atonement, is the first step.  Then you battle with Obedience, and through those works are matured to full sanctification.  If you want a more detailed explanation, some is explained below or feel free to contact me, I'd be glad to respond.

 A human can NEVER commit enough "single well performed acts" to perfect a “well-balanced character” and thus open the gates of heaven based on their own good works. 


Ephesians 4 says the exact opposite.  It's not YOUR WORKS that balance your character.  That is where you mess up your thinking.  It's not about what YOU CAN DO, but what you let HIM do.  And through the works HE teaches you to love as GOD the father does, and at that point, if you think you still sin, then you need to explain how God sins against himself.  


Only Jesus can open the gate of heaven for any human. Ellen’s teaching is called "perfectionism"   Perfectionism or salvation through good works is a dangerous heresy that is taught by Christian groups such as Catholics and SDAs.


It doesn't sound like she's saying you have to be perfect to get into heaven.  It sure sounds like she is saying God will perfect you and sinless is a place you would end up.  You are battling a huge strawman here.... That's intellectually dishonest and irresponsible.  


Other similar Christian groups de-emphasize God’s free gift of grace and emphasize earning God’s merit through good works.


Your own words said it's through GOD that it happens.  The parable of the VINE.  We just bear his Fruit, we don't create the fruit.  If we bear his Fruit and HIS fruit is maturity as much as HE was, which Christ prayed for in JOhn 17, and Paul attested to in eph 4, then who the heck are you to say it can't happen?  You are the one selling Grace short, saying HIS GRACE and HIS CHANGES that HE makes in you, are inadequate.  


Our sinful human nature and past sins will always make us imperfect. 


That has nothing to do with anything Ellen has said, at least that you have shown.  It also shows you hold a gross ignorance of the Greek word Telios.  You owe your self the education before you stand on a soapbox and lecture people about being wrong. 


If Ellen’s teaching of perfectionism is correct, our imperfect, defective, sinful, human condition would close the gate of the Holy City to every human being that has existed. Thank God that through repentance, and faith in Jesus, the gate can open up again!


Why do you believe GOD CAN NOT CHANGE YOU, and it all depends on what YOU can do?  Do you believe there is no God?  Or do you believe He's incompetent?  Which is it?


EGW:

"We can overcome. Yes; fully, entirely. Jesus died to make a way of escape for us, that we might overcome every evil temper, every sin, every temptation . . . " Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 144.
"Not even by a thought did He [Christ] yield to temptation. So it may be with us." Desire of Ages, p. 123.
"In order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning." Signs of the Times, March 3, 1898.
"To be redeemed means to cease from sin." Review & Herald, Sept. 25, 1900.
" . . . conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character." Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 505.
"Human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character." Acts of the Apostles, p. 531.
"Perfection of character is attainable by every one who strives for it." Selected Messages Vol. 1, p. 212.

Every line is scripture.  What's your problem.  Do you not believe in scripture either?  No where does she claim she's there, yet, in this.  So what's your beef with her?

BIBLE:  NO--NO ONE IS PERFECT, NOT ONE.
NOTE: In the same year of Ellen's death, it appears as if she finally admits that no one is perfect but she continues striving for perfection through good works. 


Which is what Paul coached.  And Paul said IF you were perfect you should act/carry on as if you weren't.  I don't know if you were spiritually mature that you'd notice any difference.  That in itself would be sorta cocky and sinful.  If HE makes changes in you, to you it will seem natural changes to you and not some immediate big difference, but a gradual unnoticeable thing.


Repeated, lifelong failed attempts to perfect her own character through her own effort is what she believes closes the gate of the Holy City on her.


So, do you assume she sinned forever?  or do you have some Divine ability to judge her? 


 She apparently carries a heavy load because she sees absolutely no Biblical assurance of salvation for those whose faith remains in Christ Jesus. 1 John 5:13, 1 John 3:24, 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17. 


I must have missed where you showed she felt that way.  This assumes that you think she felt you had to be sinless to be saved.  You never showed anything about that in her words.  So you are being unnecessarily malicious, or incomplete at best.


We should obey God because we love Him. On the contrary, Ellen White’s motivation to obey God appears to be centered on perfectionism and the misconception that she has a great “WORK TO DO BEFORE” God will accept her performance and open the gate of the Holy City to His self-perfected child. Needless to say, heaven is NOT inherited by earning enough “good works” merit points.
Pacific Union Recorder, April 29, 1915, paragraph 7 & 8
Article Title: Further Word Concerning Mrs. E. G. White

"I do not say that I am perfect, but I am trying to be perfect. I do not expect others to be perfect; and if I could not associate with my brothers and sisters who are not perfect, I do not know what I should do. No one is perfect.  If one were perfect, he would be prepared for heaven. As long as we are not perfect, we have a work to do to get ready to be perfect."

Ellen apparently was quoting Paul, near perfectly in this.  Here is the reference for you. :|  The more I read of this, the more angry you make me.  This is really a hate or fear filled vitriolic writing you authored.

Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on [fn8] so that I may lay hold of that [fn9] for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.15 Let us therefore, as many as are [fn10] perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep [fn11] living by that same standard to which we have attained.(NASB) 

NOTE:  Ellen admits she is imperfect but she continues working to become perfect. 


No,she didn't admit she was imperfect.  She didn't sit there and boast, I AM PERFECT.  Huge difference, and not understanding the difference is why you'll never believe God can do this in you, because you will focus on the perfection, not on the love that creates the perfection. 




She believes those who become perfect are the only ones that are ready to enter heaven.
At the Ellen White Estate Web site SDA apologists say Ellen never taught that we must be perfect before we can come to Christ. This statement is NOT accurate as it is obvious by the above listed quotes. Ellen claims that Jesus won’t come into our hearts unless we stop sinning and conversion is not complete until we attain a perfect character. Perfection before conversion is an arrogant, disregard of our desperate need of Christ perfecting atonement. Furthermore, Jesus’ inability to enter our hearts before we stop sinning would mean we have to stop sinning long enough to experience Christ entering our hearts and as soon as we made another sinful mistake Christ would leave our heart again until we took another break from sinful mistakes, repented and reaccepted Christ back into our heart. This Ellen White theology would promote a vicious cycle of conversion and reconversion or rebaptisms until a pastor gets tired of the repeated, weekly, public demonstrations of dying with Christ through baptism. The point is that Ellen taught the heresy of perfectionism through “performance/good works/acts well performed” instead of teaching perfection through faith in Christ alone.
SDA apologists who are drowning in denial face a grand challenge in denying Ellen White taught perfectionism.  Many of her writings are saturated with a critical, judgmental, perfectionist mindset.  To deny she taught perfectionism would mean that many of her published writings would need to be discontinued and much "White Out" would be needed to erase what has already been published.
We can never become perfect through our own effort. Our sinful human nature and past sins prevent us from living a perfect life. Christians can claim God’s perfection only through Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:21). Christians are perfect only through the one sacrifice that Jesus made. Scripture says this very clear:

"Because by one sacrifice he has MADE PERFECT FOREVER those who are being made holy." Hebrews 10:14

You need to read your quotes slower, and you would look less silly in your comments.  
Christ had to die, for us to be made perfect.  Now, the word PERFECT has a meaning and it's used many times in many ways, talking of different things being perfect.  You'd be better served following that and not focusing on the word PERFECT and cringing in fear because you aren't capable of it.




We are perfect in Christ alone so we cannot brag about "perfect" human efforts that will always fall short of Gods glory. 


This doesn't contradict anything she said.  In fact she would agree 100%


Salvation is not based on human perfection or on our performance.  We are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone (Romans 3:23-24). 


If you are saved by Grace through faith, not by works so no man can boast
And IF you have faith, you will have works. 
THUS if you don't have works you don't have faith.
HOW could you claim to have Grace, when it's assured you have no faith? 
That isn't saying works save you.  But it's saying if you are saved you will have the works.  
Just like batting a baseball.  If you are a right handed batter, to bat lefty you have to practice over and over, or do the works, for the conversion to take place. 
Ellen seems to be saying that you are to work on the works part, which is an inherent part of love your neighbor that cant' be left out and still claim the love btw, and by working on the works, God converts your heart and mind just as HE claimed he would do.  Why do you think God must fail?  


Perfectionists must realize that good works will NEVER earn them enough points to get into heaven. 


And you have to admit you can't change your works by not working.


Grace is a free gift from God.  Faith acts and works in response to professed Biblical beliefs. Real faith in Christ is the basis of salvation.  Real love for God is demonstrated through obedience. Through the constant leading and empowerment of the Holy Spirit, we can accomplish God’s will for our lives. However, through one sacrifice Christ made it possible for us to become perfect in him and claim the righteousness of God through Him (2 Corinthians 5:21).
The heresy of perfectionism is so serious that two more quotes will be listed. David Seamands warned:

"Perfectionism is a counterfeit for Christian perfection, holiness, sanctification, or the Spirit-filled life. Instead of making holy persons and integrated personalities—that is, whole persons in Christ—perfectionism leaves us spiritual Pharisees and emotional neurotics." Healing for Damaged Emotions, p. 78.

One of Adventism’s leading theologians, Edward Heppenstall, said:

"The pretension to sinless perfection at any time in this earthly life is the root of spiritual pride and self-righteousness . . . Salvation by grace alone means that absolute perfection and sinlessness cannot be realized here and now." Leaflet Is Perfection Possible?, p. 11, 12.

Perfectionism Under the Microscope

It may sound strange, but frequently a person with a poor self-image tends to be a perfectionist. 


It's called NARCISSISM


 If you feel inadequate, unsure of other people's love, then you start saying to yourself, "If only I try harder, if I achieve more, if I'm a better person then I'll feel better about myself and other people will love me.
Perfectionism however, is NEVER SATISFIED! 


It's burden is light.  The reason is, the focus is on love, not on sin.  The author of this is a very sin centric, afraid of judgement person who feels threatened that someone may be better than them.  A perfect person, spiritually mature person, would never even look at it that way.  They would be focused on the love, which requires work, and in perfect love there is no fear of judgement.  This person cringes in the shadows, afraid to act to avoid sinning.  




The rest of this person's diatribe was their preaching about having good self image and their views on God's desires.  I'll leave that for them to worry about.  

GOTquestions.ORG an example of presuppositional theology.

So, I have friends that ask me about Got ??s .org's answers all the time.   I don't know why, I'm not some raging biblical authority, but they trust my answers for their direction.  That's irrelevant, but I mention it to explain where this rant comes from.  Most of the answers I suppose are ok that GOT.org presents.  But man, there are tons that are so "denominational line" and cookie cut answers, they might as well just write them down on cue cards and they can reference them with, see 1A, 35X and 45B.

Below is an example of one.  Here they combine good observations, with presuppositions that can claim NO biblical support.  For them to present themselves as such an authority but give such flopsided answers, is as dangerous as the early Gnostics trying to usurp the Church's authority back in the day.  Or the "circumcision group" that Paul addressed.

In effect, they are simply saying, here are some Bible verses, and here's some of our hunches, so you can clearly see, what we want you to see.  And that's just garbage, or as Paul said Skubalon, which would translate as "shit" in our vernacular.

So, after each paragraph, I'm going to make some observations for you to consider.  I can't claim I'm right.  I CAN and do claim I'll give you a more balanced view than the parroting lemmings at GOTquestions.org.


http://www.gotquestions.org/sinless-perfection.html


Question: "Is entire sanctification / sinless perfection possible in this life?"

Answer: The Greek word teleios (tel’-i-os) is used throughout the New Testament. It is often translated as “perfect” but can also mean “complete,” “full-grown,” and even “mature.” The confusion comes in when various translations use the word perfect instead of one of the other meanings. As an example, in James 1:4 Scripture says that we will be “perfect and complete.” But a further reading of the book shows that a better translation would be “mature,” because in James 3:2 we find that we all stumble. Obviously, we cannot stumble if we are perfect. However, the concept of maturity is compatible with imperfection.

Their observations on the word Telios is on mark.  In the days of King Jim's authorized version, the use of the word would not have caused the confusion that it does today.  Only in the last 150ish years has that word, PERFECT, present the picture of Utopian standards.  So, when you see it, consider it as finished, or mature, and then ask yourself what is the author saying finished would look like.  If you can get 5 people to understand this, and they get 5 people to understand this, and so forth, in about 10 years, we'll be out of the myths created by not taking the time to understand this word. 


Their last line ruins some good thought.  Right after clarifying what the word Perfect means in context, they turn around and use it exactly as they said how not to use it.  They make no effort to define what perfect meant in those verses, or what mature would look like in the verses.  

If you are Biblically perfect, you won't stumble.  But until you are perfect you can stumble.  If you claim to be perfect before you are perfected then you will have to rewrite these verses to suit your needs and claims.  What is Biblical perfection.  They seem to have no clue.  They offer no explanation.  I doubt it ever crossed their mind because it doesn't fit into their parroted thoughts.  

They are assuming the "Perfect" word means a Utopian concept.  Why would this conclusion not be viable.... You are saved, and start a walk but are not yet fully mature in that walk, or finished in that walk, and along the walk as you learn (trials and tribulations) you will make errors, but when you arrive at being perfect/you no longer make those mistakes.  Seems to me that would fit just fine in the verses, definitions and context of the verses.

The error comes in assuming you are there already, or assuming it can't happen until after you die. 
 Plus, it denies that Paul gave several claims and examples of perfect people.  I think before anyone considers these "perfect" verses they should take the time to study what biblical perfection is.

First Corinthians 13:10; Ephesians 4:13; and Colossians 1:28 and 4:12 all should be translated as “mature” or “full-grown,” both of which fit in well in each verse’s context. As human beings we are still bound under the curse of Adam. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. The Apostle Paul scolded Peter for favoritism (Galatians 2:11-13). Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were not perfect. How could you or I claim anything different?

Not sure how 1 cor 13:10 factors into this conversation.

Ephesians 4:13 would be well expressed as mature, and it also defines what maturity is.  If Christian Maturity is measured, metaphorically, in a glass size, then our glass of maturity will be the same size glass as the Christ had on earth. 

Not only that, but it will be filled to the same amount as His glass was. 

And in case you don't get the picture, Paul reiterates that it will be to the complete fullness of Christ. 

The explanation Got?s.org present, would say that Paul was a heretic as their answer doesn't allow for this direct quote to occur in any fashion. 

Col 1:28 shows there is a completeness, or finished state, that Paul wanted to be able to present every man to Christ.  Well, Paul won't be presenting dead men, so he referenced living people.  That makes it problematic to say that Paul had a goal and expectation that was impossible.  So much for a God of truth, or biblical inerrancy when you go and proclaim Holy Red Herrings from biblical leaders. 

I wonder why they leave out the apparent contradiction from Paul in Phil 3 where he says he's not perfect, and then says he and others are perfect.  ?  Or in Romans 7:5 when he says that sinful nature/flesh is not something he is struck with anymore.  Or the times he describes some are meat eaters and milk drinkers.  

The curse of Adam I assume they present as the sinful nature.  They say we are all bound under it, and imply it's permanent.  However there is no scripture to support that claim.  And there are some, which I'll show you in a second that say exactly the opposite.  

Paul scolded peter, yes, that is true.  What it has to do here Is beyond me.  Perhaps they are claiming Peter sinned there.  Errrr... not every mistake or misunderstanding is a sin.  Peter was wrong in his actions, but not sinning, is a fine conclusion for that episode.  Especially since the rest of Galations gives examples of one who would be mature and NOT sin any longer.  

1 Tim 1:15 claims we are all sinners, which is true, every living human being has sinned.  Thus we are not pure as Christ was, we all carry sin burden/debt.   In what way can this be construed that you continue adding to that sin burden or debt until you die?  It says you have sinned, but not that you will continue to sin forever.  And in lieu of Paul's comment in Ephesians, it's expected, by Paul at least, that you get to a point to be as mature as Christ was.  So, whatever you want define "telios" as, Paul expects us to have it as much as Christ did.  So at the point you are at that point that Paul expects, if you wish to argue that you will still sin, then you must defend that Christ sinned.  OR claim Paul was a raging idiot/lunatic.

Paul claimed he was perfect.  John claimed he didn't sin any longer.  I don't know where they get their information.  But they skew it to suit their fancy, not let their fancy be skewed by the scripture.  Paul in Phil 3, as many of us as are perfect.  John in 1 john chapter 1, and 3:9.  John is in fellowship with God, those he writes to are not.  To be in fellowship with God, you must walk in the light AS HE DOES.  Does he sin?  Does God sin against himself?  If you walk in the light as HE DOES then your walk would commit as many sins as HE COMMITS.   John also says there is no darkness/sin in Him, so to be in Him you can carry no darkness.  This is made clear in 2:8 where the darkness needed to be washed away before those he wrote to were in fellowship with Him.  

3:9, claims one born of God can't sin, CAN NOT SIN, there is no iffyness to the Greek words there.  The reason is, HIS SEED IS IN THEM.  I'd read that to mean, it's HIS SEED/SPIRIT that keeps it from happening, not man's mightiness.  Blessed are the weak in spirit, not the strong.  You become weak and depend on HIS SEED and the result is, 3:9. 

True perfection will not come until the Rapture of the church, when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At this time we will receive a new body (Philippians 3:20, 21; 1 Corinthians 15:54). We will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) where our works will be judged and any rewards given (1 Corinthians 3:9-15). We will then live forever and reign with Christ, in sinless perfection.


The first sentence here offers NO support scripturally.  What they do present doesn't reach the conclusion they wished for.  The Thessalonian verse they present merely states that at some point you will be yanked into the air to be with Him.   It doesn't say everyone will be.  As written it could mean those who aren't perfect are left behind.  After all, many are called, few are chosen, right?  Regardless, it doesn't say that you will be perfect after you are pulled to the air.  Not in context, nor in words.  They really stretch and imply things they can't back up.  That's dangerous theology. 


Phil 3:20-1 merely says where our ultimate destination is to be.  Not that the destination is when you will be perfected.  In fact, Paul had just said in vs 15 that him and OTHERS were perfect now.  So this is an unfortunate verse for them to use.  


1 cor 15:54 comes closest to their claims.> But it's not conclusive, in fact you can argue more logically that it supports sinless perfection on earth. 
What is the perishable?  The imperfect that is death, that sinful nature inside of us.  
What is the perfect?  The Spirit of God that indwells us. 

Gal 2:20 says it's no longer me who lives but HE who lives in me. 

The ME that is gone, is col 2:11, body of the sins of the flesh is removed (from living on earth people). 

The HE that lives in you is Romans 8:9 if the Spirit indwells you, YOU ARE NO LONGER IN THE FLESH.  

If the Spirit indwells you, the flesh is gone, that which makes you sin when you don't want to is not present, that which keeps you from giving into temptation is present, Gal 5;16 If you walk by the Spirit you won't give into temptation.  

The rest of their comments I need not address as the verses they present continue to discuss life after earth, and do not tie into the claim that you are made perfect after death.  

I've presented plenty of options that show you can read scripture, very bluntly, and logically to imply you will be perfected on earth.  

FRANKLIN the hater of heresy...Sinless Perfection

A man named Franklin who boasts of his great apologetic ministry and feels, for some reason to have attained to a point he can judge others and other's theology has made some claims at sinless perfection that I'm going to address.  I've provided the link below.

I disagree with his position.  And rather than explain or defend my beliefs, I will merely point out his, errrrr, issues in his arguments.

http://fundamentalbaptistchristian.blogspot.com/2011/11/heresy-of-sinless-perfection.html
Tuesday, November 29, 2011

The Heresy of Sinless Perfection



One of the greatest heresies that really float around is the sinless perfection. The heresy can be understood in two ways each explained:
 

First off, let's define what a Heresy is. Nothing fancy to it.  Heresy is a word that declares you don't believe what I believe.  It's ONLY used to show you are different than me in your beliefs.  In a room of 100 Christians, if you ask them what the path to salvation is, you'd get 110 answers.  And all of them would be heretics but you.  None of them will agree with you on everything.   The word is pointless.  Only God can make the call.  Paul discussed the two men regarding meat.  For one of them WITH LESSER FAITH it was a sin to eat meat, but the one with greater faith it was not.  So if some things are sinful for one and not another, how the heck can you make that judgement call?  Therefore how can you proclaim someone else as a heretic?  The short answer is, you can't.

Franklin here, and others, do claim people as heretics.  They feel it's important to show how they are different and have it right.  Heresy is about the most emotionally driven word they can use and still claim to be Christian.

Paul put in Gal 5 that one of the fruits of the flesh, or results of the flesh, is dissensions, factions, etc...  When Franklin uses this term, he immediately fragments, causes factions, and dissensions.  His very actions, according to Paul, are of the flesh, not of the Spirit.  :)  My goodness what a doubled edged sword that book he slings around as a weapon is. 

He says....These are from that awfully problematic, abrasive, self-righteous crowd who demand the impossible, who put the cart before the horse- in short the WORKS SALVATIONIST!
1)  What a hate filled attack.
2)  What a claim of supremacy.
3)  Sinlessness biblically speaking doesn't have anything to do with works, but with Grace. (More on that later)
 
He said...That is, these people believe that one must strive to be perfect and stop sinning in order to enter Heaven. 
 
...which is a false claim for the argument of sinlessness, but IS however true of many camps within that topic.
 
Then he says...Again, it's really questionable as many who say they've never done anything wrong are living their lives like devils, they live like as if they have a license to sin because God's grace is ABSENT in their lives.


The angst is obvious, but I can understand that.  I'll agree that many make ridiculous claims.  But, only a small group feel that nothing they do is a sin, vs they do not sin.  The first one is the group with the "license to sin and God won't call it a sin," group.  The other side is one that says at some point in their life, sins stopped happening.  The latter is straight up a biblical claim.  Not saying it's rock solid but it's more solidly defined in scripture than the Trinity concept is. 
 
He sugests...As said, it's true indeed that Jesus said, "Go and sin no more."  Is it to maintain salvation?
 
But, the sinless thing, in the bible, it's not about salvation, but maturation.  If you don't understand the difference, you need to back up.
 
He then goes on to say [paraphrased] that a "works based" salvation is wrong and that salvation is by Grace alone.  Which is absolutely true, in those words.  He seems to be addressig a limited group of people who claim you have to be sinless to be saved, which isn't even the 4th best argument on the sinless side of the beliefs.  But his separation of Grace and Works is disturbing.  James makes it fairly clear that you can't separate them.  If you don't have works you don't have faith, without faith you can't have grace.  If you don't have grace you aren't saved anyway, so why are we talking?  Paul said that theology wasn't important, but faith WORKING through Love.  Paul also coached his people repeatedly to keep at the good works.  NOT to walk through life and let works find you, but to continue to do the good works. 
 
Grace, is like a coin.  You have a heads side (pretty side) and a tails side (ugly side).  On the pretty side is GRACE, salvific grace.  On the ugly side is WORKS, agapao.  There are numerous parables in the NT that show any works done are done by GOD through you.  Which is not addressed in the claim, works don't save you.  Because God working through you aren't your works.  I think Franklin agrees with that.  However, if you don't have works, you are not saved.  I am NOT saying works save you.  Read slowly...
 
Salvation is by grace, through faith, not works so no man can boast. 
If you have faith......then you have works.
If you do not have works......then you do not have faith.
If you do not have faith, then you do not have Grace.
If you have do not have Grace, you aren't saved.

Works don't save you.
But someone saved will have works.

Paul writes in Ephesians 4 that THROUGH WORKS, you become as perfect (most translations) or mature (more modern translations and a closer word for today's English) through works, and as mature as the full and complete fullness of Christ's spiritual maturity.
 
Now, for Franklin to speak so clearly and proudly, that sinless perfection is a heresy, he sure has a lot of explaining to do with the scripture just brought up.
 
Finally he moves on to a second version of sinlessness.....
The second version is what any immature Christian can embrace that by God's grace they can totally live sinlessly.


This is another error and can cause a Christian to turn into a legalistic believer. 
 
If this version of an immature Xian is done by God's grace, what does that Grace have to do with a person being legalistic.  If they are legalistic, then by definition it's not God's Grace that person feels accomplishes things.  I daresay Franklin would say Grace saves you no matter if you sin again or not.   So if GRACE is the empowering event, and it comes From God, then why would a person not be sinless if it was Grace that kept him from sinning?

It appears Franklin is more interested in winning folks to his belief, than sound arguments.
 
He then goes on [paraphrase] to say that those people in this scenario judge others, and say things like "carnal Xian" etc... which is rambling with nothing to do with whether they sin or not.   Surely, if it was dependant on God's Grace to not sin again, then God is "man" enough to get the job done.  But, rather than have an argument that applies to this "grace" position, he chose to attack the people with personal complaints and insults.  Which, is a typical fundamental Xian posture to take, unfortunately.  Read the book unChristian if you think I'm being personal.
 

He said... 1 John 1:8 is clear that sin is still present in the believer.  

 

The verse says that every one has sinned.  Not that everyone will sin forever.  John said a few verses earlier that his walk in life was as Christ's was.  I don't see room for that to include sins any longer.  He also said to be in fellowship with God, which John said he was, and those he wrote were not, you must have no darkness in you.  God is light, then darkness is sin, right?  Now, I don't think it's quite as clear as he would imply.  In fact, what he implies is beyond improbable to laughable.  There is a bunch of versal gymnastics to pull to make the verse imply what he suggests.

 

 

He said...What about 1 John 3:9?  The new man CANNOT sin but the presence of the old man causes the believer to sin.  

 

It's not new man.  It's one born of God.  It's the same body, same person, but the sinful nature is removed, and only the Spirit of God resides inside them.  I guess if you sin then HE sins against Himself at that point, and that is impossible.  If you are born of God you will not continue a walk in the dark, but will walk in the Light as He does, would be a combination of chapter 1 and this verse.

 

Romans 7:15-19 has the Apostle Paul demonstrating how there is the struggle-

 

I guess if you ignore the big glaring IF in this hypothetical you could make some claim like this, AND if you ignored that in vs 5 Paul said he was no longer in the flesh.  Franklin, apparently studies to make the verses say what he wants them to, not to find out what is actually said.

 

He said......the side that is born of God (spiritual birth) vs. the natural man therefore showing Christians cannot live sinless but they only sin less.

 

Well, since this is made up theology, imagined, and not in scripture except with the flimsiest of twists, I have to roll my eyes.  Romans 8:9 says, matter of factly, point blank, with no other possible meaning, that if the Spirit of God indwells you, you are no longer in the flesh.  They do not reside in your human body at the same time.  Period. 

 

And earlier in chapter 8, Paul said that if you are of the flesh, you obey it.  If you are of the Spirit you obey it.  Do you suppose the Spirit would command you to go and obey the flesh for a while?  If not, then how would you get over there to do it?   Col 2:11 says that flesh isn't there anymore. 

The teaching on this topic is very emotional, and not very rational.