Teaching, or Agenda? GotQuestions.org

I have friends who get notices from GotQuestions.org.  It appears some of the answers they read seem incredulous to them, so they ask me to interpret.  I have written GQ.org more than once asking about their posts and/or requesting discussion.  I have consistently got varying attitudes from the "how dare you question us" arena.

Now, I'm not putting down all their answers.  But there are a good number that are highly suspect.  Just don't tell them about what you suspect makes them suspect.  That's where the fangs and claws come out.

So recently I tried again.  I started my note with my previous experiences.  Told them what I had a problem with.  And asked for a senior editor to discuss with.  I got, you guessed it, more of the same attitude.  So, I've decided to address them here.  I will post their words, and will show my responses within [[  here... ]] 
I have a problem with the liberties they take using scripture in their claims.  And the conclusions they draw are not nearly as sure as they present them.  They present answers that fit their agenda of theology and expect you to accept it prima facie.  And as all my communications has revealed, prima facie means you can't question their answers.  So lacking all the posts I've made to them through the years, I'll stick to this one article and not address the attitude of the place any more after this.  I only do it here, so that I can show I have tried to contact them one on one before going public with my protest.

Let us commence....[[   ]]

Question: "Is entire sanctification / sinless perfection possible in this life?"
Answer: The Greek word teleios (tel’-i-os) is used throughout the New Testament. It is often translated as “perfect” but can also mean “complete,” “full-grown,” and even “mature.” The confusion comes in when various translations use the word perfect instead of one of the other meanings.
[[We are good so far. :)  I concur. ]]

As an example, in James 1:4 Scripture says that we will be “perfect and complete.” But a further reading of the book shows that a better translation would be “mature,” because in James 3:2 we find that we all stumble.
[[Well, the first part is correct.  Mature would be the right answer.  However GQ doesn't offer any semblance of a picture of what maturity would mean and how that would not be sinless.  Rather than show you two sides and explain why they conclude what they conclude, you are given a dictate of what the answer is.  I find this extremely biased.  BUT, in the sake of competition I will do the same thing here and just show one side, thus providing balance. :) ]]

Obviously, we cannot stumble if we are perfect. However, the concept of maturity is compatible with imperfection.
[[Which is it?  Does PERFECT/TELIOO/TELIOS mean mature or doesn't it?  They told you it means mature, then tell you maturity =s imperfection.  If perfect is the opposite of imperfect, and perfect =s mature, then mature =/= imperfection.  The very problem they explain people have with the use of that word "perfect" confuses them, right here, in public for the world to see. 

This sort of liberty is taken thoughout the post in an attempt to tell you what to believe.]] 

First Corinthians 13:10; Ephesians 4:13; and Colossians 1:28 and 4:12 all should be translated as “mature” or “full-grown,” both of which fit in well in each verse’s context.
[[AGREED!  MATT 5:48 as well!  except complete would be better than mature, which would still be less confusing than perfect. ]]

As human beings we are still bound under the curse of Adam. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God.

[[This is not supoorted with scripture.  It is the theology of GQ.ORG and they impose that upon scripture.  Granted it makes logical sense.  So you could say someone not sinning is illogical, but what is logical about a 2000 year old dead and resurrected head of the Church? If we are to assume anything we don't understand or haven't witnessed is impossible, then we might as well throw the resurrection out first, right?  That's a very silly standard to apply.

Scripture doesn't say you will be bound forever, it says you will be freed from the curse by His dying on the tree.

Gal 3:13

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" --

Or 1 John 3:5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

All things considered, without any verse, OR conversation being found in the Bible that says you will be bound to the curse of Adam, for them to imply it's prima facie fact, offer no support for the claim, they prey on the innocent and attempt to subversively influence their studies.  ]]

The Apostle Paul scolded Peter for favoritism (Galatians 2:11-13).

[[And, showing favortism, or making a mistake is a sin?  No wonder it's presented as you will sin under Adam forever by GQ.org.  I'd suggest that we don't have the pay grade to judge if Peter sinned or not.  This is just a fear of sin based on a sin-centric theology, that teaches against 1 John 4:16-18/gal 5:6.]]

Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15).

[[He also said himself and others were perfect.  Or as GQ.org puts it, mature.  So, I guess finding out what Perfect or mature looks like would be important.  From the sins that Paul had committed, is it hard to imagine him considering them more rank than all other people?]]

Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were not perfect. [[Well, that's a lie. Paul said he was perfect 2.5 vss after they will present he said he didn't consider himself to have achieved that yet...  John said he walked in the light AS HE DOES, and there is no darkness in Him.  If you walk in the light AS HE DOES, either you do not sin, or HE does sin.   I would suggest that rather than face the possibilities of the wording in these author's works, they just searched for anything they could use to project their theology upon the less learned and innocent. ]]

How could you or I claim anything different?

[[Scripture says we are to be made perfect/mature.  Col 4:12  Jam 1:4  Paul says we are to be presented by Him to Christ at His return as perfect.  Col 1:28  So, if you want to preach what they Bible says, why would you deny these claims?

If they are going to accept that PERFECT means MATURE, then they should stop bouncing around from the modern English use of Perfect, they condemn in their "exegetics" as impossible, and read the verses with the MATURE or finished concept that we can agree upon? 

We might also see if we can find an explanation of what this word would mean in the minds of those writing these letters.... May I suggest, for your consider, the definition Paul describes? ]]

Ephesians 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

These are those with Gifts to lead the church.

 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service,

The fundagelicals will hate seeing that we are SUPPOSED to do work, and more importantly all that comes after this comes THROUGH this work or as a result of this work....

...to the building up of the body of Christ;

[[This would reference the Church.]]

 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith,

[[This would reference the individuals of the Church.]]

and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man,

[[Here is you word PERFECT in Kjv.  So, HOW PERFECT/MATURE are we to be????]]

 to the measure

[[If Christ's Maturity was measured in a glass, ours would be just as full as His is.]]

of the stature

[[Not only as full, but it would be the same size as...]]

 which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

[[[[[In case that picture doesn't work for you, point blank, FULLNESS OF CHRIST'S perfection/maturity.  So HERE is your definition of Xian Maturity.  Now if that would result in sinlessness or not is open for debate, but GQ.org won't debate it.  So, I present it here for you to have a counter to consider to their eisegetical push of their agenda.  For the record, if We are to be made as mature as Christ is, it's hard to believe that we would sin if HE does not.  So either we wouldn't, or HE would. 

It really doesn't matter if you believe it can happen, nor if you have seen it happen, we are discussing what the Bible reads.  Remember, the Roman Catholic Church, according to fundagelical leaders read what they WANT the Bible to say, not what it says.  I say we should hold ourselves to the standard of honoring what it says, not what makes sense to me.  God is a supernatural, or supranatural God.  What would make sense to me would be a huge step down in awareness for Him.  If it made sense to me, I'm surely messing it up somehow.   BUT FOR THE RECORD, I've never met anyone that raised from the dead and flew into the clouds either.  So, if we are going to apply "what we understand can happen" to the rules of biblical interpretation, we should all go home, that makes no sense at all, raising and riding the clouds....]]]]]

 14  As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

[[Maturity verified, not children but more mature...]]

15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
********************
True perfection will not come until the Rapture of the church, when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

[[Oh hogwash.  Paul said He and others were perfect..Got Questions.org is playing word games to meet their claims here.  1 thess 4:17 says no such thing...
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

IT DOES say we are to raise in the air.  It has nothing to do with maturity/perfection however.  In fact, it would imply that those who were left were those made mature, and He pulled them in the air for that reason.  This is a logically viable interpretation of the words.  To tie them together would be like dropping a verse from Peter, into Genesis 8 and changing the meaning... It's pure, unadulterated, eisegetics and wishful thinking, not to mention a HUGE reach to cross the chasm to try to link this verse with maturity/sanctification/perfection, etc...  JESUS WEPT would connect just as well. ]]


At this time we will receive a new body (Philippians 3:20,21; 1 Corinthians 15:54).

[[ What makes these verses link to the 1 thess verse?  Why didn't Paul explain this up there?  Because it's a reach of proof texting to make a point they believe but is no where in scripture.

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Nothing anywhere places this as an event linked to the 1 thes verse.  However if we WERE going to link it, you would see something like this.... 

WE WHO ARE ALIVE, would be those alive at the time of this event

WILL BE CAUGHT UP WITH THEM IN THE AIR, tie to the "our citizenship is in heaven"  This is the destination ideal of a believer.

ALWAYS BE WITH THE LORD, <<< destination.  (except he comes to earth for a 1000 years and we live for the resurrection, not heaven, but......details...)
The other verse says that HE will change us.
Isaiah says He changes our hearts and minds, on earth,
Eph 4 shows how much we are changed on earth, to be fully and completely as mature as Him.

So if I actually try to fit those two together, I end up with you will be sanctified/changed/MADE holy, vs perceived holy on earth before ascension.  And I would contend those are separate conversations and not linked.

The 1 cor 15:54 But when this perishable

(Our mortal body...)

will have put on the imperishable,

(Rom 8:9 Spirit of God, and the flesh nature is gone...)

 and this mortal will have put on immortality,

(Gal 2:20, it's no longer ME who lives (sinful nature col 2:11) but HE who lives in me (Spirit of God, rom 8:9.))

then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

(body of sin is death, body of the Spirit is life.... or according to the sin/ Spirit.. romans 8:5-7)

It's still talking about Xian maturity on earth.  ]]


We will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10)

[[For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. ********* 
Nothing ties this to the other verses, in the order it's presented.  They are totally Disparate conversations, plucked and pulled from here and there, willy nilly because they say warm fuzzy things that appear like the image they want to portray.  They are not all part of the same conversation, they are arrived at from totally different destinations and piecing them together with nothing to link them is irresponsible.]]


where our works will be judged and any rewards given (1 Corinthians 3:9-15).

[[This verse doesn't even remotely connect.  It's discussing your life on earth, and how you are to live it.  It's discussing the works you were saved to do, the works that MAKE YOU MATURE in Eph 4. ]]

We will then live forever and reign with Christ, in sinless perfection.

[[There is nothing to link those verses together, OTHER THAN THEY MEET THE AUTHOR'S NEEDS to justify their belief...  They are totally disparate in nature, linked only by agenda.  HOWEVER we see that if you are WITH CHRIST as the author ends with, you do not sin....
1j 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
And that we are called to be in Him on earth. 1 J 4:16.

We see if we are born of God, we will not continue in our sinful lifestyle, and in fact we can not sin.  1j3:9.

They would retort with a pedantic argument that makes the conversation very awkward if it was the intent of the author.  In short, before the conjunction in 3:9 you have a present tense, with a continuing sense to it.  So the lifesyle that is built for sinning, I.E. the sinful nature, or the life before the Circumcision done by Christ in Col 2:11 as listed above.  BUT after the conjunction, it's a HARD NEGATIVE, "OU" and a present tense for sin.  NOT SIN.

Now, the dilemma is, the Present tense CAN have the continual sense to it, and it can not.  Context defines it, not my preference of theology.  So, let's test the CONTINUING theory with the present tense verbs.... Let's use common sense....  If I said, "I went into the bushes and regurgitated" in the present tense.  Would that mean I was vomiting for the rest of my life?  What if I went to the bathroom, or I was swimming.  Of course not.  The pedantic argument for that continuing to sin for ever, doesn't pass the stink test as a rule that MUST apply.  And John makes MANY comments that would support it as it is written in English.

GotQuestions.org, bless their liddul hearts, try to help people find answers to their questions.  But in their fundagelical roots, rather than help you work out the answers, they tell you what they want you to believe, and try to rally the troops to their way of thinking. 

I find more times than not, their answers are short sighted and abuse scripture as shown above.

While I offered to debate them, and would love it on this topic.  I find their agenda is protected when they feel threatened like a turtle pulling into a shell.  Rather than admit to error, they would run and avoid the confrontation so no one can see they were wrong.  Much like the little geeky kid, threatening to whup the heinie of the big linebacker avoids the actual confrontation...



As an example, in James 1:4 Scripture says that we will be “perfect and complete.” But a further reading of the book shows that a better translation would be “mature,” because in James 3:2 we find that we all stumble. Obviously, we cannot stumble if we are perfect. However, the concept of maturity is compatible with imperfection.



First Corinthians 13:10; Ephesians 4:13; and Colossians 1:28 and 4:12 all should be translated as “mature” or “full-grown,” both of which fit in well in each verse’s context. As human beings we are still bound under the curse of Adam. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. The Apostle Paul scolded Peter for favoritism (Galatians 2:11-13). Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were not perfect. How could you or I claim anything different?



True perfection will not come until the Rapture of the church, when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At this time we will receive a new body (Philippians 3:20,21; 1 Corinthians 15:54). We will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) where our works will be judged and any rewards given (1 Corinthians 3:9-15). We will then live forever and reign with Christ, in sinless perfection.

Faith Works

 Man, if you use the word "works" in a sentence most forums will derail.  It's such a heated topic that it puts some ridiculous extremes on the table to consider.  The fact is you were saved for a purpose.  If you decline the purpose I'm not sure you can claim you ever accepted salvation.  

King Arthur has a horde of attackers from the North.  He Knights, Galahad, as Sir Galahad.  He equips him with weapons and armor.  He provides him a mount and a squire and some pages.  Galahad is now sent to the North to fight for Arthur King.  Galahad is thankful.  Look at all the beautiful gifts, the horse, the helpers, the finest weapons.... he even has an allowance that he is to share with the people to pay his own way and not be a burden on the people.  So, Galahad rides around the countryside, giving the money to pay his and his people's way, showing off his pretty bling, but never goes to fight the Northern Invaders.  When He runs out of money is the King going to replenish him as a Knight since he has not done the job he was Knighted to do? 

We are saved to do good works. 

We are His instruments of righteousness, or tools of righteousness. We are the means that He presents His love to the people through.  

God uses EVERYONE for His purpose.  His Will be done is a statement of fact, not a request we need make.  

There are two people in the Bible that didn't seek to be God's tools and God used them to accomplish His plan of salvation.  Judas Iscariot, whom we should thank God for every day.  And Pharaoh, whom we should also thank God for and probably pray for their souls every day.    They were used by God.  They were key players.  They did not seek out His plan for the world and seek to be part of it.  So God used them anyway.  Which is your role model you aspire to be?  (the question is to those who argue you aren't to do works...) 

So, regarding works, it seems to be a doctrine that goes something like this.... 

You are saved by Grace, through faith, not works, so you can't boast. 

If you have faith, you will have works. 

Thus. 

If you don't have works, you don't have faith. 
If you don't have faith, your claim to Grace is about like Galahad's to Knighthood above.... illegimate. 

Without Grace you aren't saved.  

Works don't save you.  But if you are saved you better have works.  You were hired on to be a tool.  Best be that tool. 

Through works God matures us spiritually and teaches us Spiritually.  Eph 4:11-17.  

So if you refuse to do the works you refuse spiritual growth. 

The word for love, AGAPAO/AGAPE requires an action be associated with it.  Those would be works. If there is no presentation/demonstration/action with the emotion, the claim to agape is a lie. 

If you don't love neighbor, He's not in you and you aren't in Him.  That person isn't saved as I understand it.  1 j 4:16-18. 

Not only is the sincere love that reacts with action important, but it must be complete.  Matt 5:48. 

Matt 5 is a discussion/lecture on how to love correctly.  Jesus explains His father, God loves even His enemies.  Not only that but that love manifests in providence for His enemies.  
Jesus commands you to love as completely as God the Father loves.  That means even to providence/action. 

Paul says the most theological argument of His day was not important but faith WORKING through love was. 

So, accept the free gift of salvation.  And realize you sold your sole to LORD Jesus, not Santa Claus Jesus.  Find the works/talents/gifts you have been given and put them in operation.  Only through acting on and applying your faith will you grow into what HE wishes you to mature to be. 

The Hubris of the argument for lack of belief.

I speak with many who claim a lack of belief in a divine power. I respect their views and find them more honest than many of the "believers" I speak with. Let's be honest, if we truly believed, or KNEW GOD, in that sense of knowing that is more than rationalization or proclamation, we'd throw ourselves down and be crippled by His awesomeness.

I mean "knowing" as in the greek word for "know your spouse" in the bible. An intimate, in depth, experienced, lived, felt, comprehended, trusted sort of knowledge. Heinline coined a phrase in "Stranger in a Strange Land", GROK. You can find it in most dictionaries I think these days. It meant to understand at an intuitive level. To "FEEL" it or be so familiar with it, it becomes assumed without question. I GROK the effects of gravity in my life. I KNOW, even though I can't put it into words how it will affect me.

I can't make that claim about God. I don't think you can either. Lots of folks will be offended, some will feign offense, and more will be threatened because they think that by claiming that belief, or knowing, of God gains them that eternal escape from punishment. They think if they question this, they admit to having no faith. I'd argue rather than wanting to grow in faith, they are wanting to claim a faith they don't yet have. But, that's not why I'm here. I don't mean to question anyone's faith, or their belief. I would encourage everyone to not rest smug with a proclamation of faith alone, however.

The Agnostics, Atheists, Agnostic-atheists, etc... that I've discussed God with nearly all come to a point where they make a point against the essence of the belief in the God I run the race to meet. It's something like this. "Don't you think, that to claim you are the ONLY faith that has it right, is a bit arrogant? Who are you to make a proclamation that you can't prove, and expect me to accept it?"

HEY! Let's be honest. That's a pretty honest and fair question.

A debate challenge, Christian Maturity

Resolved: That a person who has reached Xian Maturity, as a result, will no longer sin. Being sinless is not a measure of, but a result of Xian Maturity. Xian Maturity is a result of learning to love as Jesus commanded, exemplified as Matt 5:48.

Terms:
Perfect. Mature, complete, finished. I recognize the Utopian aspect of the English word perfect has only existed for a handful of decades and didn't exist in 1611 when the Greek word was translated to English.
Example, a boat can have flaws, but if it floats and does its job it is Perfect in the sense the Greek word is usually used.

Mature. Having been cured/grown/progressed/graduated to a finished state. A child is mature when they reach adulthood. A tree is mature when it produces fruit.

Romans 6:22 is a description of a process that one reaches Xian maturity.
Freed from sin/atonement = saved.
slave to God/ Obedience =trials and tribulations--discipline--training
receive a benefit = His seed, His Spirit, Him in you. 1 j 3:9, Rom 8:9, 1 j 5:18.
The benefit leads to sanctification. = Christian maturity,

Sanctification is used many ways. When saved you are "set apart" when mature you are MADE again, heart and mind adjusted by God. This is the made apart sanctification above and it has discernible benchmarks to lay claim to it.

While this is a process that you will do work to achieve, the work you do is like Moses holding the stick over his head to part the Red Sea. Who parted the sea, Moses and the stick, or God. Why did God make Moses hold the stick up?

The end result is more than a position, or how Christ looks at you, it is how you have been matured, quickened, made anew, actually regenerated. It is more than you want to do good, but by Him in you, your life is doing good.

Preemptive arguments

1 John 1:8 does not say you will sin forever. It says we all have sins on our person. Which is true for anyone but Christ. Only He lived a life free of sin. We are born to sin, and do sin until we are quickened/made mature. Also: John claimed to walk in the light AS HE DOES. And unless He sinned, if John sinned then he wouldn't be walking in the light AS HE DID.

Romans 7: 14-28ish. If that was Paul attesting to still having a sinful nature and committing sins caused by that nature of sin inside of him, then Paul was drunk, delirious, deliberately misleading in 7:5 when He said him and others were not in the flesh. One also has to ignore the hypothetical nature of the IFs you find in these verses. IF means maybe, not assuredly. If is conditional, not declarative.

Sinful nature til you die..... is contradicted in col 2:11 where it's removed by Christ in a circumcision which doesn't return/grow back.
Romans 8:9 that when/if the sinful nature indwells you, you are no longer in the flesh.
Gal 2:20 it's no longer me who lives, but HE who lives in me.

"Do you know anyone who is sinless/are YOU sinless".
If I am sinless or not is irrelevant when determining what scripture says. If I pass at that demarcation point or not, doesn't change what scripture says.

I don't know if I have met someone or not. I can't judge their hearts. And I have never met anyone that has been raised from a three day death, either, would you suggest we destroy the claim of our messiah because we haven't met them either?

I'll field any and all scriptures.
If you claim I'm taking something out context, back up your claim and show the context. Those will usually be long enough tangents to warrant their own discussion, however. I can put up about 85 pages of reasoning with scripture from all over the Bible to show it's a consistent corroborative message.

Another "posturing post" on Sinless perfection.

Ray, and coming in the clouds .org has posted some comments on Sinless Perfection.  Now I don't care what you believe.  I am responding to the exegetics of it, and sometimes the posturing attitude of the other author I respond to.  I have a tough time with those that pretend to know it all and expect you to say, OH WOW YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!

I ask that you examine the arguments I make to see if they COULD be true, before you investigate them to see if they are consistent.  You may find the argument I'm addressing here...
http://comingintheclouds.org/issues/sinless.htm

And here is the letter I gave Ray.
"Does the Scripture support such a claim? Can any man attain such a place ) and would his wife and children, or boss, or friends agree that he is perfect? The unqualified answer is no. "


http://comingintheclouds.org/issues/sinless.htm





You are right, you are unqualified to make that answer.

________________________



"The primary difficulty is the concept of the total depravity of man, a.k.a. the thorough inability of man. "



The problem with your statement is that Scripture doesn't say it's up to man to do. It's something GOD does. I'd have to ask you, do you not believe in God, or do you think He is incapable. Or, perhaps you never investigated this topic on both sides to see what is possible and what isn't. OR perhaps you are just addressing one or two people you have fallen across in your life. If both people were wrong, that doesn't make the position wrong. IF Wesley and Finney were both wrong, that doesn't make the position wrong. And I thought all things were possible through God. Isn't that what Christ said? Do you not trust him either?

_________________________

"beyond self-reparation. "

1) it's not up to self according to scripture.

2) your doctrine of total depravity isn't stated as such in scripture. It's determined from opinions of scripture. As a result, the opposite argument can be made and be just as scriptural.

_____________________________



"the Scriptures nonetheless support this doctrine"

I look forward to seeing them. :


What I see is man starts off broken and God fixes. It seems you seek an excuse to remain broken and not surrender it all to God. Which is the story of the Rich Young Ruler.

_______________________________

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5)"

AND Noah reconciled that issue. And after Noah you had Melchizedek, then Abraham, then ... and so forth. What the Genesis 6 verse is speaking of, was reconciled by God. It describes a pre Noah people. Not us today.

___________________

"The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, [I] try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings." (Jeremiah 17:9-10) "



God searches the heart, you do not know someone's heart, nor do I. God can try the reins, and rewards according to the fruit. With that heart, that God describes there, did he not also say...



Eze 11:19"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

Eze 36:26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Eze 36:27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

__________________________________

"These verses speak directly to the condition of the nature of man."

A nature, that Paul described in the last 1/3 of Romans 7, but stated he no longer suffered in Romans 7:5.



A nature that Romans 8:9 says is GONE IF the Spirit of God in dwells you.

A nature that Paul wrote was removed by a circumcision done by Christ at some point. Col 2:9

So if that nature that is inherently evil, no longer remains inside of you, what's your excuse.

____________________

"who restrains the evil of man were to cease from such restraint, man would indeed then be as bad as he could be."

Which is it, does God have restraint or not? Can man make God release constraint? Big man, right? Or as you put it would God have to cease from restraint?

. "My sheep listen to my voice: I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish: no one can snatch them out of my hand, My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29).

_____________________

"Though we try desperately to alter or to purify ourselves, we end up with the same problem; we are filthy with both the cause and results of sin, and there is no way to change that fact."

It appears to me, the more you build yourself up to be strong, the more you are fighting God for CONTROL. The rich young ruler was told if He would be perfect he must sell all of the things he built up for himself, and give it all away, and come to follow Christ TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON HIM! In other words, lose your self provided strength, and depend fully on Christ. I trust, a man of such a big and bold website as you have, would know what that word PERFECT means. If not check it out at www.blueletterbible.com.

And, don't forget, along with this position of mine, the verse, blessed are the poor in spirit. Poor meaning someone who requires help from others, can't provide for self..... Poor in spirit, admits they have a weak spirit and lives dependent on God accordingly.

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"If the truth of the salvation program is known, that God has laid upon Jesus the iniquities of His people, and therefore through propitiatory intercession has designated all His people's iniquity to Christ, then God looks upon those who are born of God (see John 3:5) as never having sinned. "

It's true, that you have atonement for your sins, and GOD ignores your sins, as long as you confess them to God or a Spirit blessed man/woman. However, that doesn't interfere with John's statement in any way. And to claim it refutes it is silly. The option I will present will allow your statement to stand, as it's accurate to an extent, but show the rest of the story.

1 john 3:9, after the conjunction, says can not go on sinning. The NEGATIVE word in Greek is an absolute. The word for Sinning is missing the mark continuously. In other words 1 john 3:9 reads like this, If you are born of God you won't continue in the continuing sinful nature Paul discusses in Rom 7, in fact you can not sin anymore.



The problem only surfaces when you claim you are born again, before you are.

____________________________

"recalling 1 John 1:10, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

How does this say you will sin forever? It doesn't. It says everyone has sinned. JOHN 3:16 is the same comment. No one is denying that we have all sinned. The conversation is dealing with will we sin going forward.



I have a question for you, if John claims that to be in fellowship with God, you must walk in the light AS HE DOES, can you claim you walk in the light as HE does, and still sin, without saying HE sins? If John walked in the light as God does, John states unequivocally that he no longer sins. He's trying to help the people be in fellowship with God, they are atoned for but not yet in fellowship with God. And if you roll over to chapter 3 you see in vs 6 that John writes, if you still sin you haven't seen Him and do not know Him. <<<>>>

It's pretty consistent my way of reading it. YOU HAVE TO make silly claims like you did on 1:10 above.

___________________



""If we say `We have accomplished sinlessness' we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.""

Do you make a habit of adding words and editing the Bible to suit your theology? That's rather unfortunate. There is nothing about accomplishing a state of not sinning in the verse you paraphrase at all. As you said in the tense comment, it's about sins committed already, or sinning now. A sin you don't commit, can't be finished as your tense requires. :


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"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23) "



Again, see 1:10 above, doesn't say you will sin forever. No one claims anyone but Christ was born and lived without sinning. There is nothing in that verse that shows you will arrive at a place that you do not continue to sin. And there is nothing that says GOD will fail if He intends to take you there.

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"If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before [their] enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;" (2 Chronicles 6:36)

Seems to me the word "IF" there allows for someone that doesn't sin against Him. Every man has sinned. Plus at the time of Chronicles, the Spirit of God wasn't in the capacity it is in the NT, and that is the key to Paul's and John's claims on the topic.

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"Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one." (Job 14:4)

So, your belief is GOD fails when He says He will remake us. Impressive, what an awesome God you have built for yourself. The great protector, but not mightier than you... very unthreatening.

__________________________________

"Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?" (Proverbs 20:9)

God says HE can do it in us. Do you doubt Him?

_________________________________

Again this is a confirmation of the inability of man to do anything truly good, that is, in a Godly (or perfect) manner.



"But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6)



????? Yes, you are born an unclean thing. God says numerous places I have shown you that HE will cahnge you and fix you. I've shown you the unclean part is removed by Christ, unless you find him a failure in His attempts, and the result is it's not me who lives, but HE who lives in me. Col 2:11 flesh is removed, romans 8:9 the Spirit of God indwells me, Gal 5:16 then I won't give into temptations of the flesh.



I'm sorry, but you haven't looked at the other side of this argument very fairly.

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Though we try desperately to alter or to purify ourselves, we end up with the same problem; we are filthy with both the cause and results of sin, and there is no way to change that fact.

It seems to me, you need to think less of yourself and what you can do, and learn to be Poor of Spirit. Only then, can you prevail. And it's not you prevailing, anymore than Moses holding the stick above His head is what parted the red sea.

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Is there an indication of the possibility of sinlessness in the earthly life? In 1 John 5: 18a says, "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not." A popular, but wrong interpretation is that if I am born-again, I will have no sin in my physical life and at that point we will be able to say "I am born of God."

Errr no. The more accurate reading of this would be, if I still sin, I am not yet born of God. That's the conclusion to draw here. Not use some empty claim to be born again, when that's is God's to determine, not yours.

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The question you posed with....."O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:24-25)"

Is answered by Paul with....

Rom 8:9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

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You say...The flesh will serve the law of sin until the day of Christ,"



That isn't in scripture anywhere, especially in your commentary.

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What you have done, is an eisegetical assassination of a doctrine you refuse to consider. You have written it off before you studied it. I will provide a very simple, EXTREMELY short argument FOR sinless perfection.



You are born in life with a sinful nature, and it plays with you and controls you according to Paul.

You seek atonement/freedom from sin, then battle with obedience, and in that battle you receive a benefit <<<>>> and the benefit leads to sanctification. Rom 6:22.

The benefit is either Gal 5:16 the Spirit, or 1 john 3:9 His Seed, depending on the author. John probably didn't use the word Spirit because of the Gnostic issue he was sorta dealing wtih.

The sinful nature is removed at some point by a circumcision done by Christ, col 2:11.

And the Spirit of God then indwells you, Romans 8:9.

then, absent the flesh, armed with the Spirit, you no longer give into temptation. Gal 5:16.



I can make the same argument, errrr parallel arguments from Christ, and John. Whether you think that's what those verses mean or not is irrelevant, they COULD mean it. Until you take the horse by the reins and say, I'm going to understand this, you will never have an answer for it.



I don't claim to be the person I describe above. But, I fully defend that scripture claims it.

Gay marriage and the conservative right.

I'm a firmly rooted believer that Jesus the Christ was the Word made manifest, born from the womb lf Mary, named Joshua in his home and Jesus in the common town, who became the messiah, was blessed by the Spirit of God at 30ish, and led a three year ministry teaching, LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR, died, was resurrected, and ascended, guided the church in its establishment, trained his Apostles to perpetuate the growth, who trained others to carry on from them and so forth. 

I believe the Bible is a book with a perfect message.  That doesn't mean every word is literal.  For example, Sarx/Flesh/Sinful nature.  Taken literally is always tied to the human body.  This makes Paul and others animated, Dungeon and Dragon skeletons in Romans 7:5.  The message however, is a perfect message.  This means you have room for metaphors, analogies, and other tools to express the message.

With this in mind, Gay marriage should have already been adopted by the Christian Churches in America, and the outrageous, dehumanizing, attacks on the topic never have occured.   I certainly hope that was inflammatory enough to keep you here.  Now, for the reasoning:

There is no example to follow where Jesus, John, James, Timothy, Barnabus, Peter, Paul, John, Matt, Mark, Luke, etc... ever tried to force beliefs on anyone.  Their ministry was with the people.  Jesus didn't tell the village the woman at the well lived in to punish her.  He spoke with her, one on one. 

Paul said it wasn't his job to judge those outside the Church.

Christ said that we are to love our neighbors, who may be our enemies, as perfectly, or completely as God does.  God's love was described as being one that provided for them; not just tolerate them.  (The Church today does neither to GLBT communities.) 

That love provided necessities.  The word Agapao requires the providential, charitable, representation through action to even qualify as Agapao.  The opposite is happening in this discussion.

Christ said to the soldier and the tax collector, two very "unholy" jobs in that culture that they were to do their jobs for the government, just do them fairly.

We are to respect the government, they are God appointed.

Their role, like the tax collector and soldier above, sometimes require them to not function as a Church.  They have to protect all people they govern.  WHY THE HELL (for hell is the only reason you would...)do you try to impede them doing their God appointed task.

If you use Matt 5:43-48, a quote from the Christ, you are to love your neighbor, even your enemies, and not just a warm fuzzy love, but one that provides/takes action to demonstrate that love to them.

You who yell loudest, are the most unChristian among us.  You are also, the most unBiblical. 

But you are the most rabid, and vapid at the same time.

Please, I appeal to you, stop making God and His Church out to be such a fascist regime.  Talk about AntiChrist.  If CHRIST is the Church, that is to be God's instrument of love to the people, this action is anti Christ by every sense of the word.

Sanctification, the word.

Someone told me of their study on Sanctification.  It didn't take long on a subject like this for us to find several points we disagreed.  Now, surely we both thought/think we were/are right.  And I commended the person for standing up for their beliefs as vehemently as they did, all the while amazed at how blind they were.  And, I'm sure the other person felt the same way.  In other words, there is no way to know who is right, short of asking God.  But we both worked as hard as we could to be as right as we could be. 

What we were taught growing up, our presuppositions, our habits and pesonal experience all contribute to why we had different views.  But the one thing that stood out to me, that may help someone else to avoid as much "fun" as we had in our chat, and get to substantial issues quicker.  The meaning of the word Sanctify/Sanctification/Saint, etc.

Agreeing on the definitions of words in advance is sort of crucial to furthering a conversation. But more important than agreeing is what does the word actually mean?   And then make sure that isn't what it means to us in the English word, but captures the "flavor" of the word from antiquity and language.

The word literally means, "set apart".  I'm sure everyone has heard that.  But what people don't always recognize is it's not used ONLY for one who is "saved" (whatever that word means.)  It is also set for the prize bull in your herd, or an inanimate object even.  You can sanctifiy a laver to wash your hands with, and you can sanctify the carpet you walk on.  Think of anything in a synogogue that would be used for services, and it can be sanctified. 

Now, my friend had done a study on the word, sanctified.  If you go to http://www.blueletterbible.com/, type sanctifiy in the search, hit enter, you will see it's used 25 times in 24 verses in the NASB Bible.  Matthew 23:17, John 10:36 are two great examples.  One has gold being sanctified.  The other has Jesus being sanctified.  So, anytime you see the word, if you keep in mind that phrase, "set apart" and realize every instance it is used, is not discussing ourselves being set apart by God, we can get a better understanding.

But, even in the instances that it does apply to us, the Church, there are different meanings.  This is where they confusion occurs.

Part of the problem is people are preached "you are a sinner, repent, be saved" as the gospel.  AND it is an important part of the Gospel.  But the fact you are "saved" for a reason is not taught as much and the message gets out of balance.  Eph 2:10. 

So, when people believe Jesus was ONLY about saving 'ME', the rest of the story is forgotten.  Paul talked about Meat eaters, and milk drinkers; those who were perfect, and those not yet perfected.  We see a level of maturity is attainable after salvation.  This growth, is part of the rest of the Gospel Story.  Paul showed us that some were more "grown up" spiritually and were no longer drinking milk.  Do you think one of them was sanctified and the other one wasn't?  And the important question, when he's discussing the ones who are sanctified, does that apply to the milk or the meat consumers? Or does it apply to both?

In Romans 6:22 we see a progression of the life of a believer:
Atonement/freedom from sin
Battle with obedience/ slaves to God
receive a Benefit/ Spirit gal 5:16; His Seed 1 john 3:9
The benefit leads to Sanctification.

If we ONLY consider Sanctification to mean salvation; then you are sanctified, then this verse would read, you aren't sanctified until after your sins are forgiven and you stopped sinning.  Atonement-forgiven, obedience and benefit-stopped sinning, THEN sanctification.

I think it makes more sense like this.  Anytime you are atoned for, God has set you apart.  That means that is a person who is sanctified in the sense of being set apart.  This person could be a "milker" or less mature person, depending on how you look at things, but is still "saved" thus sanctified. 

In the verse above, Rom 6:22 Paul has been talking about the growth of a believer.  In Romans 8 it ends with a person so mature, the sinful nature is no longer in them.  That's a far cry from a milk drinking new believer.  There is a progression we see in this segment of the letter.

You are here, Romans 6, and have to battle this nature of sin.
This is what that nature of sin is like, and how it affects you, Romans 7.
Who will save me from this predicament?  (end of Rom 7)
Thanks to Him, and when I'm indwelled by the Spirit I'm no longer in the Flesh.  Or, if I'm still in the Flesh I'm not yet indwelled by the Spirit.

The salvation sets you apart.  But from then, you start a walk that will change you and no longer require God to set you apart in His mind, you will be changed and be apart permanently.

Sanctified at Salvation
leading to
A change to a totally different person.

You probably disagree with how complete the change is compared to how I see it.  So I'll leave that for another day.









http://www.bible-knowledge.com/sanctification-article/

The following is a person who has made a bold assertion against Ellen White.  And while I won't try to defend Ellen White, much of what I say will defend her, as I address the flaws in the argument the Anonymous Author presented.

For the record, Mr. Ms. Author, at any time you'd like to put me in my place on this topic, which is the definite "fever" and "attitude" I got from what you had to say below, I'm game.  :)  I'd love an educational debate in public on the topic.  I'll address the comments below.  The A.A. person will be in tinted background.

http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw66.htm Can Christians be Perfect, Flawless or Without Sin?

By Anonymous Author

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BIBLE: NO – Perfection cannot be humanly obtained. (Perfection = Sinlessness)

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23  

Yes, it's true every man has sinned, woman too, most kids, even my dog, but this verse doesn't say that they will continue to sin forever, does it?  Every man has sinned, and was born with a sinful nature.  But scripture doesn't say they live with it forever, in fact it says it could be the opposite of that.

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:10

Again everyone has sinned.  It doesn't say you will continue sinning for ever.  In fact this letter says the exact opposite.  So you either need to understand this verse better, or make the other verse not say what the words in it say.  3:9, 5:18.

"The heart is the most deceitful thing there is, and desperately wicked. No one can really know how bad it is! Only the Lord knows!" Jer. 17:9, 10.

Last I checked, in the life with Christ, at some point, He's going to replace that heart of stone with a softer one.    So, while it's true you start with a deceitful heart, BIBLE says you aren't supposed to stay that way.  

"The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who are wise, who want to please God. But no, all have strayed away; all are rotten with sin. Not one is good, not one!" Psalm 14:2, 3.

I guess I'd just comment, Good thing that it's not based on OUR heart, but on HIS God's new creation of a heart.  Which, if we look at in detail would result in a heart that no longer sins.  But that's another topic...

"We are all infected and impure with sin. When we put on our prized robes of righteousness we find they are but filthy rags." Is. 64:5, 6.

If you are a mature believer, it's not YOUR rags you wear, but it's HIS body that cloaks you.  Your OT verses show the life before the resurrection well.

NOTE: Only one man was perfect and without sin—Jesus Christ


Note:  Ephesians 4 says you are to become as mature as Christ Himself was on earth.  NOT that you will have never sinned, but that at a point going forward you will be as Spiritually mature as HE was on earth.  I guess this author would argue that Jesus sinned on earth, or that this verse is a lie.  Because one of those options must be true, if you are as mature as Him but still sin.




EGW:  YES--Perfection is possible through good works.

"As the Son of man was perfect in His life, so His followers are to be PERFECT in their life. A well-balanced character is formed by single ACTS WELL PERFORMED. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. . . . In all the redeemed host not one defect will be seen. . . . " The Faith I Live By, page 44,
"Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter."  My Life Today, page 271

BIBLE: Christ has given us assurance that his yoke is easy:

"The teaching that I ask you to accept is easy; the load that I give you to carry is light." Matthew 11:30

As long as we attempt to attain a perfect character or we attempt to bear our own spiritual fruit, a Christ-like character will NEVER be an easy matter—it will be impossible to reach. However, Christ has given us assurance that his yoke is easy and his burden is light.


So, if HIS YOKE is light, why do you argue it can't happen?  That's what you do here.  To attain that "perfection" you don't do it by focusing on not sinning.  You get there by focusing on love.  the word for love, agapao requires the works, demonstrations of love/charity, or it's Phileo not agapaeo.  Gal 5:6 theology isn't important but works of faith through love.  Note the SHEEP that did the works went to heaven in matt 25's last parable.   So, if your job is to LOVE NEIGHBOR, and you focus on love neighbor, then you grow in love.  If you grow in love to the point that CHRIST COMMANDED in matt 5:43-48, what sin would you commit?  It's just silly to claim there would be even one.

Now if you fear the judgment of sin, let me suggest that in 1 john 4:16-18 it says that imperfect love fears punishment of sin.  So, your love is not yet perfected.  You should focus less on what Ellen White has to say, and focus more on what you should do to grow in LOVE.

What would that be?  In Ephesians 4, Paul says that through works, you grow in Spiritual Maturity to the full and complete, spiritual maturity that Jesus the Christ had on earth.  I guess you propose Jesus sinned?  Or you propose that Paul lied in those verses.


This assurance comes from the same Christ who does NOT expect us to recreate our own perfection, our own fruits, or our own righteousness.


I guess you never read where Jesus COMMANDED you to be as perfect in how you love as God the Father was.  Matt 5:43-48.  You are specifically backwards on this point.




He is the vine and we are the branches. Without Christ we can do nothing. NOTHING! (John 15:5)

So, if it's HIM that does all the work, why do you propose HE can't keep you from sinning?  I guess in your belief God isn't omnipotent and you are more powerful and if you want to sin and He is your power and you choose to sin you can beat him and do it.  That's brilliant.
Gal 5:16 if you walk in the Spirit you won't give into the temptation of the flesh.    As you said, it's up to Him here.  But your position says he must fail.  Mine says He's capable of success.  I'm sorry you see such a minor God.


NOTE: According to scripture, all humans are born in sin and commit sin. Hence, humans can never become perfect without claiming the perfection of Christ.




Now this doesn't even make since.  We are all born in sin, and commit sins in our lives.  But that doesn't in ANY LOGICAL FASHION imply that you will sin forever.  It just doesn't.  You are born in sin, with a sinful nature, you grow up in Christ, HE removes the sinful nature (col 2:11) and His Spirit indwells the spot vacated, (Rom 8:9) and you walk in the Spirit and don't give into temptations of the flesh, that is absent, Gal 5:16.


,
 Christ’s perfection is freely offered since the cross. Before the cross, perfection from the sinful human nature was available through faith in the future promise of the perfect Christ. The lamb sacrifices and the annual day of atonement both pointed to the future cross.


Atonement, is salvation.  This sinless thing you battle with is Maturation.  That's what that word Telios means, it's usually translated as Perfect.  Do a word study on the Greek word Telios.  If you need help try www.blueletterbible.org, or www.bible.org.   If you read romans 6:22 you'll see freedom from sin, atonement, is the first step.  Then you battle with Obedience, and through those works are matured to full sanctification.  If you want a more detailed explanation, some is explained below or feel free to contact me, I'd be glad to respond.

 A human can NEVER commit enough "single well performed acts" to perfect a “well-balanced character” and thus open the gates of heaven based on their own good works. 


Ephesians 4 says the exact opposite.  It's not YOUR WORKS that balance your character.  That is where you mess up your thinking.  It's not about what YOU CAN DO, but what you let HIM do.  And through the works HE teaches you to love as GOD the father does, and at that point, if you think you still sin, then you need to explain how God sins against himself.  


Only Jesus can open the gate of heaven for any human. Ellen’s teaching is called "perfectionism"   Perfectionism or salvation through good works is a dangerous heresy that is taught by Christian groups such as Catholics and SDAs.


It doesn't sound like she's saying you have to be perfect to get into heaven.  It sure sounds like she is saying God will perfect you and sinless is a place you would end up.  You are battling a huge strawman here.... That's intellectually dishonest and irresponsible.  


Other similar Christian groups de-emphasize God’s free gift of grace and emphasize earning God’s merit through good works.


Your own words said it's through GOD that it happens.  The parable of the VINE.  We just bear his Fruit, we don't create the fruit.  If we bear his Fruit and HIS fruit is maturity as much as HE was, which Christ prayed for in JOhn 17, and Paul attested to in eph 4, then who the heck are you to say it can't happen?  You are the one selling Grace short, saying HIS GRACE and HIS CHANGES that HE makes in you, are inadequate.  


Our sinful human nature and past sins will always make us imperfect. 


That has nothing to do with anything Ellen has said, at least that you have shown.  It also shows you hold a gross ignorance of the Greek word Telios.  You owe your self the education before you stand on a soapbox and lecture people about being wrong. 


If Ellen’s teaching of perfectionism is correct, our imperfect, defective, sinful, human condition would close the gate of the Holy City to every human being that has existed. Thank God that through repentance, and faith in Jesus, the gate can open up again!


Why do you believe GOD CAN NOT CHANGE YOU, and it all depends on what YOU can do?  Do you believe there is no God?  Or do you believe He's incompetent?  Which is it?


EGW:

"We can overcome. Yes; fully, entirely. Jesus died to make a way of escape for us, that we might overcome every evil temper, every sin, every temptation . . . " Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 144.
"Not even by a thought did He [Christ] yield to temptation. So it may be with us." Desire of Ages, p. 123.
"In order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning." Signs of the Times, March 3, 1898.
"To be redeemed means to cease from sin." Review & Herald, Sept. 25, 1900.
" . . . conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character." Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 505.
"Human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character." Acts of the Apostles, p. 531.
"Perfection of character is attainable by every one who strives for it." Selected Messages Vol. 1, p. 212.

Every line is scripture.  What's your problem.  Do you not believe in scripture either?  No where does she claim she's there, yet, in this.  So what's your beef with her?

BIBLE:  NO--NO ONE IS PERFECT, NOT ONE.
NOTE: In the same year of Ellen's death, it appears as if she finally admits that no one is perfect but she continues striving for perfection through good works. 


Which is what Paul coached.  And Paul said IF you were perfect you should act/carry on as if you weren't.  I don't know if you were spiritually mature that you'd notice any difference.  That in itself would be sorta cocky and sinful.  If HE makes changes in you, to you it will seem natural changes to you and not some immediate big difference, but a gradual unnoticeable thing.


Repeated, lifelong failed attempts to perfect her own character through her own effort is what she believes closes the gate of the Holy City on her.


So, do you assume she sinned forever?  or do you have some Divine ability to judge her? 


 She apparently carries a heavy load because she sees absolutely no Biblical assurance of salvation for those whose faith remains in Christ Jesus. 1 John 5:13, 1 John 3:24, 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17. 


I must have missed where you showed she felt that way.  This assumes that you think she felt you had to be sinless to be saved.  You never showed anything about that in her words.  So you are being unnecessarily malicious, or incomplete at best.


We should obey God because we love Him. On the contrary, Ellen White’s motivation to obey God appears to be centered on perfectionism and the misconception that she has a great “WORK TO DO BEFORE” God will accept her performance and open the gate of the Holy City to His self-perfected child. Needless to say, heaven is NOT inherited by earning enough “good works” merit points.
Pacific Union Recorder, April 29, 1915, paragraph 7 & 8
Article Title: Further Word Concerning Mrs. E. G. White

"I do not say that I am perfect, but I am trying to be perfect. I do not expect others to be perfect; and if I could not associate with my brothers and sisters who are not perfect, I do not know what I should do. No one is perfect.  If one were perfect, he would be prepared for heaven. As long as we are not perfect, we have a work to do to get ready to be perfect."

Ellen apparently was quoting Paul, near perfectly in this.  Here is the reference for you. :|  The more I read of this, the more angry you make me.  This is really a hate or fear filled vitriolic writing you authored.

Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on [fn8] so that I may lay hold of that [fn9] for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.15 Let us therefore, as many as are [fn10] perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep [fn11] living by that same standard to which we have attained.(NASB) 

NOTE:  Ellen admits she is imperfect but she continues working to become perfect. 


No,she didn't admit she was imperfect.  She didn't sit there and boast, I AM PERFECT.  Huge difference, and not understanding the difference is why you'll never believe God can do this in you, because you will focus on the perfection, not on the love that creates the perfection. 




She believes those who become perfect are the only ones that are ready to enter heaven.
At the Ellen White Estate Web site SDA apologists say Ellen never taught that we must be perfect before we can come to Christ. This statement is NOT accurate as it is obvious by the above listed quotes. Ellen claims that Jesus won’t come into our hearts unless we stop sinning and conversion is not complete until we attain a perfect character. Perfection before conversion is an arrogant, disregard of our desperate need of Christ perfecting atonement. Furthermore, Jesus’ inability to enter our hearts before we stop sinning would mean we have to stop sinning long enough to experience Christ entering our hearts and as soon as we made another sinful mistake Christ would leave our heart again until we took another break from sinful mistakes, repented and reaccepted Christ back into our heart. This Ellen White theology would promote a vicious cycle of conversion and reconversion or rebaptisms until a pastor gets tired of the repeated, weekly, public demonstrations of dying with Christ through baptism. The point is that Ellen taught the heresy of perfectionism through “performance/good works/acts well performed” instead of teaching perfection through faith in Christ alone.
SDA apologists who are drowning in denial face a grand challenge in denying Ellen White taught perfectionism.  Many of her writings are saturated with a critical, judgmental, perfectionist mindset.  To deny she taught perfectionism would mean that many of her published writings would need to be discontinued and much "White Out" would be needed to erase what has already been published.
We can never become perfect through our own effort. Our sinful human nature and past sins prevent us from living a perfect life. Christians can claim God’s perfection only through Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:21). Christians are perfect only through the one sacrifice that Jesus made. Scripture says this very clear:

"Because by one sacrifice he has MADE PERFECT FOREVER those who are being made holy." Hebrews 10:14

You need to read your quotes slower, and you would look less silly in your comments.  
Christ had to die, for us to be made perfect.  Now, the word PERFECT has a meaning and it's used many times in many ways, talking of different things being perfect.  You'd be better served following that and not focusing on the word PERFECT and cringing in fear because you aren't capable of it.




We are perfect in Christ alone so we cannot brag about "perfect" human efforts that will always fall short of Gods glory. 


This doesn't contradict anything she said.  In fact she would agree 100%


Salvation is not based on human perfection or on our performance.  We are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone (Romans 3:23-24). 


If you are saved by Grace through faith, not by works so no man can boast
And IF you have faith, you will have works. 
THUS if you don't have works you don't have faith.
HOW could you claim to have Grace, when it's assured you have no faith? 
That isn't saying works save you.  But it's saying if you are saved you will have the works.  
Just like batting a baseball.  If you are a right handed batter, to bat lefty you have to practice over and over, or do the works, for the conversion to take place. 
Ellen seems to be saying that you are to work on the works part, which is an inherent part of love your neighbor that cant' be left out and still claim the love btw, and by working on the works, God converts your heart and mind just as HE claimed he would do.  Why do you think God must fail?  


Perfectionists must realize that good works will NEVER earn them enough points to get into heaven. 


And you have to admit you can't change your works by not working.


Grace is a free gift from God.  Faith acts and works in response to professed Biblical beliefs. Real faith in Christ is the basis of salvation.  Real love for God is demonstrated through obedience. Through the constant leading and empowerment of the Holy Spirit, we can accomplish God’s will for our lives. However, through one sacrifice Christ made it possible for us to become perfect in him and claim the righteousness of God through Him (2 Corinthians 5:21).
The heresy of perfectionism is so serious that two more quotes will be listed. David Seamands warned:

"Perfectionism is a counterfeit for Christian perfection, holiness, sanctification, or the Spirit-filled life. Instead of making holy persons and integrated personalities—that is, whole persons in Christ—perfectionism leaves us spiritual Pharisees and emotional neurotics." Healing for Damaged Emotions, p. 78.

One of Adventism’s leading theologians, Edward Heppenstall, said:

"The pretension to sinless perfection at any time in this earthly life is the root of spiritual pride and self-righteousness . . . Salvation by grace alone means that absolute perfection and sinlessness cannot be realized here and now." Leaflet Is Perfection Possible?, p. 11, 12.

Perfectionism Under the Microscope

It may sound strange, but frequently a person with a poor self-image tends to be a perfectionist. 


It's called NARCISSISM


 If you feel inadequate, unsure of other people's love, then you start saying to yourself, "If only I try harder, if I achieve more, if I'm a better person then I'll feel better about myself and other people will love me.
Perfectionism however, is NEVER SATISFIED! 


It's burden is light.  The reason is, the focus is on love, not on sin.  The author of this is a very sin centric, afraid of judgement person who feels threatened that someone may be better than them.  A perfect person, spiritually mature person, would never even look at it that way.  They would be focused on the love, which requires work, and in perfect love there is no fear of judgement.  This person cringes in the shadows, afraid to act to avoid sinning.  




The rest of this person's diatribe was their preaching about having good self image and their views on God's desires.  I'll leave that for them to worry about.