Faith Works

 Man, if you use the word "works" in a sentence most forums will derail.  It's such a heated topic that it puts some ridiculous extremes on the table to consider.  The fact is you were saved for a purpose.  If you decline the purpose I'm not sure you can claim you ever accepted salvation.  

King Arthur has a horde of attackers from the North.  He Knights, Galahad, as Sir Galahad.  He equips him with weapons and armor.  He provides him a mount and a squire and some pages.  Galahad is now sent to the North to fight for Arthur King.  Galahad is thankful.  Look at all the beautiful gifts, the horse, the helpers, the finest weapons.... he even has an allowance that he is to share with the people to pay his own way and not be a burden on the people.  So, Galahad rides around the countryside, giving the money to pay his and his people's way, showing off his pretty bling, but never goes to fight the Northern Invaders.  When He runs out of money is the King going to replenish him as a Knight since he has not done the job he was Knighted to do? 

We are saved to do good works. 

We are His instruments of righteousness, or tools of righteousness. We are the means that He presents His love to the people through.  

God uses EVERYONE for His purpose.  His Will be done is a statement of fact, not a request we need make.  

There are two people in the Bible that didn't seek to be God's tools and God used them to accomplish His plan of salvation.  Judas Iscariot, whom we should thank God for every day.  And Pharaoh, whom we should also thank God for and probably pray for their souls every day.    They were used by God.  They were key players.  They did not seek out His plan for the world and seek to be part of it.  So God used them anyway.  Which is your role model you aspire to be?  (the question is to those who argue you aren't to do works...) 

So, regarding works, it seems to be a doctrine that goes something like this.... 

You are saved by Grace, through faith, not works, so you can't boast. 

If you have faith, you will have works. 

Thus. 

If you don't have works, you don't have faith. 
If you don't have faith, your claim to Grace is about like Galahad's to Knighthood above.... illegimate. 

Without Grace you aren't saved.  

Works don't save you.  But if you are saved you better have works.  You were hired on to be a tool.  Best be that tool. 

Through works God matures us spiritually and teaches us Spiritually.  Eph 4:11-17.  

So if you refuse to do the works you refuse spiritual growth. 

The word for love, AGAPAO/AGAPE requires an action be associated with it.  Those would be works. If there is no presentation/demonstration/action with the emotion, the claim to agape is a lie. 

If you don't love neighbor, He's not in you and you aren't in Him.  That person isn't saved as I understand it.  1 j 4:16-18. 

Not only is the sincere love that reacts with action important, but it must be complete.  Matt 5:48. 

Matt 5 is a discussion/lecture on how to love correctly.  Jesus explains His father, God loves even His enemies.  Not only that but that love manifests in providence for His enemies.  
Jesus commands you to love as completely as God the Father loves.  That means even to providence/action. 

Paul says the most theological argument of His day was not important but faith WORKING through love was. 

So, accept the free gift of salvation.  And realize you sold your sole to LORD Jesus, not Santa Claus Jesus.  Find the works/talents/gifts you have been given and put them in operation.  Only through acting on and applying your faith will you grow into what HE wishes you to mature to be. 

The Hubris of the argument for lack of belief.

I speak with many who claim a lack of belief in a divine power. I respect their views and find them more honest than many of the "believers" I speak with. Let's be honest, if we truly believed, or KNEW GOD, in that sense of knowing that is more than rationalization or proclamation, we'd throw ourselves down and be crippled by His awesomeness.

I mean "knowing" as in the greek word for "know your spouse" in the bible. An intimate, in depth, experienced, lived, felt, comprehended, trusted sort of knowledge. Heinline coined a phrase in "Stranger in a Strange Land", GROK. You can find it in most dictionaries I think these days. It meant to understand at an intuitive level. To "FEEL" it or be so familiar with it, it becomes assumed without question. I GROK the effects of gravity in my life. I KNOW, even though I can't put it into words how it will affect me.

I can't make that claim about God. I don't think you can either. Lots of folks will be offended, some will feign offense, and more will be threatened because they think that by claiming that belief, or knowing, of God gains them that eternal escape from punishment. They think if they question this, they admit to having no faith. I'd argue rather than wanting to grow in faith, they are wanting to claim a faith they don't yet have. But, that's not why I'm here. I don't mean to question anyone's faith, or their belief. I would encourage everyone to not rest smug with a proclamation of faith alone, however.

The Agnostics, Atheists, Agnostic-atheists, etc... that I've discussed God with nearly all come to a point where they make a point against the essence of the belief in the God I run the race to meet. It's something like this. "Don't you think, that to claim you are the ONLY faith that has it right, is a bit arrogant? Who are you to make a proclamation that you can't prove, and expect me to accept it?"

HEY! Let's be honest. That's a pretty honest and fair question.

A debate challenge, Christian Maturity

Resolved: That a person who has reached Xian Maturity, as a result, will no longer sin. Being sinless is not a measure of, but a result of Xian Maturity. Xian Maturity is a result of learning to love as Jesus commanded, exemplified as Matt 5:48.

Terms:
Perfect. Mature, complete, finished. I recognize the Utopian aspect of the English word perfect has only existed for a handful of decades and didn't exist in 1611 when the Greek word was translated to English.
Example, a boat can have flaws, but if it floats and does its job it is Perfect in the sense the Greek word is usually used.

Mature. Having been cured/grown/progressed/graduated to a finished state. A child is mature when they reach adulthood. A tree is mature when it produces fruit.

Romans 6:22 is a description of a process that one reaches Xian maturity.
Freed from sin/atonement = saved.
slave to God/ Obedience =trials and tribulations--discipline--training
receive a benefit = His seed, His Spirit, Him in you. 1 j 3:9, Rom 8:9, 1 j 5:18.
The benefit leads to sanctification. = Christian maturity,

Sanctification is used many ways. When saved you are "set apart" when mature you are MADE again, heart and mind adjusted by God. This is the made apart sanctification above and it has discernible benchmarks to lay claim to it.

While this is a process that you will do work to achieve, the work you do is like Moses holding the stick over his head to part the Red Sea. Who parted the sea, Moses and the stick, or God. Why did God make Moses hold the stick up?

The end result is more than a position, or how Christ looks at you, it is how you have been matured, quickened, made anew, actually regenerated. It is more than you want to do good, but by Him in you, your life is doing good.

Preemptive arguments

1 John 1:8 does not say you will sin forever. It says we all have sins on our person. Which is true for anyone but Christ. Only He lived a life free of sin. We are born to sin, and do sin until we are quickened/made mature. Also: John claimed to walk in the light AS HE DOES. And unless He sinned, if John sinned then he wouldn't be walking in the light AS HE DID.

Romans 7: 14-28ish. If that was Paul attesting to still having a sinful nature and committing sins caused by that nature of sin inside of him, then Paul was drunk, delirious, deliberately misleading in 7:5 when He said him and others were not in the flesh. One also has to ignore the hypothetical nature of the IFs you find in these verses. IF means maybe, not assuredly. If is conditional, not declarative.

Sinful nature til you die..... is contradicted in col 2:11 where it's removed by Christ in a circumcision which doesn't return/grow back.
Romans 8:9 that when/if the sinful nature indwells you, you are no longer in the flesh.
Gal 2:20 it's no longer me who lives, but HE who lives in me.

"Do you know anyone who is sinless/are YOU sinless".
If I am sinless or not is irrelevant when determining what scripture says. If I pass at that demarcation point or not, doesn't change what scripture says.

I don't know if I have met someone or not. I can't judge their hearts. And I have never met anyone that has been raised from a three day death, either, would you suggest we destroy the claim of our messiah because we haven't met them either?

I'll field any and all scriptures.
If you claim I'm taking something out context, back up your claim and show the context. Those will usually be long enough tangents to warrant their own discussion, however. I can put up about 85 pages of reasoning with scripture from all over the Bible to show it's a consistent corroborative message.