What a lovely way to be ignored...

Source:

http://www.biblicalquestions.net/2015/01/justification-gospels-most-important.html?showComment=1428192977283#c5414437634462947891




A few months ago myself and three other pastors from my church were meeting to decide on the wording for a brief statement of faith that we wanted to start reciting at the beginning of our Sunday morning services. At one point I suggested that we use the word "justification" in one of the sentences, another pastor quickly looked at me and said, "do you know how many people don't even know what that word means?" What he said caught me by surprise, but as I thought about it I began to realize that he was probably right. This dilemma began to roll around in my thoughts for the next couple months until I finally decided that I needed to write this blog. So here it is, I am going to take some time to explain what justification is, it's repercussions, and why it is so crucial to understand as believers.




Justification is the declaring of a person to be just or righteous. It is a legal term signifying acquittal (Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology). That is, we are made to be righteous apart from, and in spite of our sins that earn us guilt. This word has a legal connotation implying that a certain penalty is not owed to an individual based upon their standing with the court. I'm sure after hearing these definitions you can begin to see why the word justification it is so central to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but I will explain in detail all of it's repercussions later in this blog. Right now I want to take some time to focus on a pivotal text from scripture regarding this doctrine of justification.




Romans 5:1-2- "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God."


This passage gives us a basis for understanding how powerful justification really is when it comes to our salvation. Justification is so powerful that it gives us total peace with God. Justification nullifies the vicious cycle of striving to maintain a right standing with God. It puts to death our trust in us, it forces us to trust in the work that Christ did at the cross on our behalf. And this is exactly where God wants us to be, fully trusting Him for everything we need, especially our salvation. Justification gives us confidence that we now have total access to God the Father, we need not meet a list of conditions to enter His presence. Our faith in Christ has made us righteous in God's sight. Justification also serves as the only basis for a true and steady hope in eternal life.




Now, I mentioned that we need not meet a list of conditions to enter God's presence. One might say, "well doesn't the Bible say we need to confess our sins and repent when we make a mistake in order to get right with God again? Doesn't that serve as a condition?" That's a very good question. When a believer sins it doesn't cause them to break relationship with God. That is, we do not lose our position as a child of God. So no there aren't any conditions we need to meet to remain God's child. However, we do prohibit intimate fellowship with God when we sin. This is because when we sin it isn't just against us or somebody else, it's directly against God our Creator. Psalm 51:4-"Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight; so you are right in your verdict and justified when you judge." In the same way that we offend another person when we do something aganist them, we offend God our Creator when we sin against Him, and thus our intimate fellowship is cut short until we ask God to forgive us. So the answer is no, confessing our sin is not a conditon we need to meet in order to maintain relationship with God, but it is a "condition" we need to meet in order to maintain intimacy with God. We wouldn't even be able to go to God and confess our sin if justification through Christ did not open the door for us to do so.




Without the binding legal ramifications of justification, we have absolutely no basis to hope in eternal life. This means we have no basis to be comforted when a believer we know dies, we have no basis to thank God for saving us, no basis to rejoice in the reality of His gift of eternal life, and no basis to not be horrifically afraid of dying. Why is all of this so? Because if there is any inkling of a possibility that we have to maintain a list of unattainable standards in order to continue to be justified in God's sight, we can have no certainty as to whether or not we will actually finish the race without error, and we can't be certain that others have finished the race without error either. Justification removes this uncertainty by addressing every aspect of our sin, past, present, and future, and giving a legal declaration of not guilty through faith in Jesus Christ. This is why when Paul writes about our justification in Romans chapter 5 he follows it with, "And we boast in the hope of the glory of God." This means that because we have been declared righteous by God we can now have certainty of eternal life. This gives us plenty of reasons to rejoice! It's the foundation of our joy in Christ! Justification is God's legal, binding, and irrevocable guarantee that we are going to spend eternity in His Kingdom.




While we are on the subject of justification by faith I want to take a moment to address the idea of "saving faith" versus "fleeting belief." A person cannot be justified in God's sight by merely having an emotional moment that amounts to nothing more than mental assent. I believe that thousands of people walk down the aisle each year hyped up over emotions, and they pray the sinners prayer thinking it's "the thing you have to do to get to Heaven." Many of these people do not experience saving faith, although some certainly do, but saving faith occurs when God grabs hold of you and empowers you to believe with your whole heart. With saving faith God's word penetrates a softened heart that was prepared by His Spirit beforehand, and it bears fruit afterward. In the parable of the sower we see an example of a person who demonstrates saving faith (Mat 13:23), but we also see an example of a person who demonstrates fleeting belief. "The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful."(Mat. 13:22) We also see this in Mat. 13:20-21, and various other places in the Gospels and New Testament letters. Justification can only occur when a person demonstrates saving faith.




Now, back to justification. Later on in Romans chapter 5 we find Paul explaining the process of justification by drawing a parallel between Adam and Jesus. Romans 5:18-19- "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Here Paul explains that through the disobedience of Adam we all inherited a sinful nature by default, this sinful nature leads to disobedience which brings condemnation for everyone. In the same way, a person is now able to inherit a new nature which is the essence of righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, this leads to justification for all who believe. So the way that justification works is that God gives us the righteousness of Jesus Christ, who lived a sinless life on our behalf.




Here is the way that God gives us the righteousness of Jesus Christ:




1. God took account of the perfect life of Jesus Christ, as He takes account of every life that lives on Earth. (Mat. 12:36)

2. Jesus Christ took the punishment that sinful men deserved by dying on the cross. (2 Cor. 5:21)

3. God raised Jesus Christ from the dead to be a mediator between Himself and mankind. (1 Tim. 2:5)

4. God gives us an invitation through Jesus Christ to be saved from the punishment we deserve as sinners. (John 3:16)

5. When we accept God's invitation He cleanses us of sin through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. (Eph. 1:7 & 13)

6. Now that we have been cleansed, God can now live within us, so God gives us His nature which is perfect and He credits the righteous life of Jesus to our account. (Eph. 1:13-14 & 2 Cor. 5:21)

7. Now that we have been cleansed and given a new nature, God does not impute our sin to us any longer, He reckons us a clean vessel with a righteous life and a righteous nature. He has justified us through faith in Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:1)




As you can see God is very systematic in the way that He goes about justifying a person. On might ask, "why doesn't God just forgive everyone and save all the trouble?" The answer comes from understanding God's multifaceted nature. God is not only merciful, He is also perfectly just. This means that He cannot let sin go unpunished. Therefore, God became a man to live a sinless life on our behalf and die the death we deserved in order to satisfy the penalty that our sin called for. This is what one would expect from a perfect God who is both merciful and just, and in Christ we find God combining two seemingly opposite concepts (justice and mercy) in a most beautiful and powerful way. As a matter of fact, there are no words to describe how majestic this process of justification truly is. Only the Eternal God could accomplish the feat of rendering mercy and justice together in the same independent act, and that act was the death of Christ on the cross.




The repercussions of justification by faith are unending but I want to point one final aspect of what justification does before ending this blog, the repercussion is this; justification by faith gives us power to endure trials. Romans 5:3- "Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance." So in this verse Paul has just finished writing that because of justification we can "boast in the hope of the glory of God (being with God forever)," then he goes on to say that because of justification we can also rejoice in our suffering. Why is that? I believe the most concise answer is found in 2 Cor. 4:17 where Paul says, "For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all." Because of justification we have a certain hope in eternal life, and because of that we are able to look at our suffering and trails with the confidence that God will reward us in eternity for each of them. Without justification we have no certainty of eternal life and therefore our trails are meaningless and we have no reason to rejoice whatsoever. But thank God that is not the case! God will wipe every tear from our faces, and He will do this because we have been justified by faith in Jesus Christ! So as you can see justification is essential is more ways that we could ever imagine!




Justification is important for believers to understand for many different reasons. Without it you have no basis for hope in eternal life, you also have no reason to rejoice in suffering, you have no security in your relationship with God, you will tend view God as a taskmaster rather than a loving Father, you ultimately have no certain comfort regarding other believers who have died, you will tend to walk in condemnation and legalism, and you will never fully understand the power of what God really did through His death, burial and resurrection. I guess you could say in short that without justification by faith there is no gospel. Without justification by faith there is only religion, there is only an inadequate attempt to follow a list of rules hoping that you got it all right before you die, and none of us do. This is why justification is so important, because it is the very foundation of Biblical Christianity, it is the entire reason that Christ died!




Now that we have discussed what justification is, it's repercussions, and why it's important to understand as believers, I hope that you feel more empowered than ever to pursue all that God has in store for your life. We can now relate to God in a way that is confident, thankful, secure, hopeful, and so much more! Please consider sharing this message with others so that everyone can realize that justification is the gospel's most important word! God bless!




Photo credit to: http://counselmagazineonline.com/articles/justification/


























Posted by Kyle Bailey at 4:02 PM










Labels: Bible Basics, by grace have you been saved, Calvinism, Eternal Security, Exegesis, Free will, imputed righteousness,Justified by Christ, Perseverance of the Saints, the righteousness of Christ








Kyle Bailey

Seminary graduate. Professor of Theology at Covenant Bible College and Seminary. Happily Married. I become more amazed by the grace of Jesus Christ everyday.



11 comments:






Kyle BaileyJanuary 13, 2015 at 3:19 PM


This comment has been removed by the author.

Reply







brad dickeyApril 2, 2015 at 8:21 AM


Why make a blog, if you are not transparent with how it is received? That is literally cult like behavior, removing posts you don't like.




Thoughts, give c them a practical not xac theological definition of justification. What does it look like on your life??? You can justify your lumber c when you make a table. Justify you ledger or check book. Etc. The word is so holy rollered up into a cliche it's literally lost meaning.




AND it's word a believer, if they are studying it, miss the point. Knowledge of the wore is useless. I know the meaning of tracheotomy, doesn't mean I can do one.




Knowledge can be a distraction to application. With knowledge, but no application imagery, it's pointless. UNLESS you are teaching translation skills.. .




It says if you have justifying faith, you will have works. This without the works, you aren't saved. But the works don't save you, they are a result of what does save you. Claiming salvation without works is like saying you are swimming in a lake and aren't wet.




Further v our teaches your spiritual maturity come through works, not bible study. If understanding this word help them in it being applied in their life, it's worthless. And this word is not something you can know about and choose, anymore than va hold can choose to go into puberty. It's organic, not engineered.




Knowing what the word means, vs knowing the lifestyle justification is grown into, are usually counterproductive....




Best intentions and all that...

ReplyDelete







Kyle BaileyApril 2, 2015 at 9:11 AM


Brad. Thank you for your comments. The first comment was removed because it was an advertisement not an actual comment. Understanding the word Justification is crucial, otherwise we are unable to understand a very key word God uses to describe what happened when we were saved. In paragraph 6 I briefly reviewed the reality that some people do not have genuine faith. Those who have genuine faith will bear fruit which manifests in good works. The works to not save us, but they are an indicator that salvation that has taken place. It seems to me that you don't want people who don't have genuine faith to feel as if they have been justified when they really haven't, and I understand that concern. However, I have made it clear that justification only applies to those who have "saving faith," and those who have "saving faith" need to know that, "now that they have been justified by faith, they have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Thanks for reading!

Reply







brad dickeyApril 3, 2015 at 4:53 AM


I am glad I called you on it so no one else could feel the same alarm, but not investigate.




Your premise assumes you have to understand..... That is patently untrue. I do not have to understand how he does it not why, for him to do it.




Your part on saving faith was on target, I should have acknowledged it. I am on my phone and thumbs alone are challenging.




My point can be best summarized by Paul in eph 4 where he explains the most crucial knowledge we are individuals learn, that leads to Xian maturity comes trough works not study.




It's living, not knowing. It's acting, not study. God says numerous ways, places and authors, that it's him that changes us. But teaching some one must know what justification means, demands they do the changing, as the change is contingent on their knowing.




Ignorant and active, trumps knowledgeable and contemplative every day of the week in scripture, in regards to spiritual growth.




Even the knowledge we require to grow to telios, come from works, not study




I think what ruins me here boils down to the "you must know" aspect. Its false. I must know God, he is not just a philosophy. I can not know him rationally, I must learn of him experientially.




Saying we must know the meaning of justification to be saved, is like saying I have to know endocrinology to enter puberty. It's an organic change, not a knowledge gained.




If you had time, i would like to show you how the harder you strive to "know" him rationally, the harder you work against surrendering to him, as you fight for control, not relinquishing it.




Most with any evangelical leanings at all, aren't comfortable at alm with even the possibility I could have said that correctly.




Iow, I would like to dialogue, but realize you may not have time or appetite for it.




If you edit a post, you should explain why to avoid assumptions are made. My assumption was influenced by a similar discussion on Christian maturity that the author refused to publish my comments or questions after his post.




Protect your ministry show more not less.... But I "get it" regarding ads....




May your ministry be blessed. We have a Facebook group with selected individuals to discuss things like this. Broad, ecumenical, young and old, wise and simple, a gamut of mindsets.... Feel free to contact me/us if v you ever wish to bounce your thoughts against the wall.

ReplyDelete







Kyle BaileyApril 3, 2015 at 7:55 AM


Knowing we are Justified helps us to understand we have peace with God. (Romans 5:1)




Jesus said you shall KNOW the truth and the truth shall set you free. As Christians we must have a combination of knowing and doing not one or the other. God bless you also!

Reply







brad dickeyApril 3, 2015 at 2:17 PM


Kyle BaileyApril 3, 2015 at 7:55 AM

Knowing we are Justified helps us to understand we have peace with God. (Romans 5:1)

---------

Ginosko? Or logic? The issue is HOW YOU grow to KNOW, and if KNOW means GROK (*Heinlin term) an inner instinctual, intuitive, muscle memory sort of knowledge, or RATIONALIZE, where you consider it a practical conclusion and accept it.




GROK is closer to Ginosko than teaching, and logic is.

==========




YOU>>>>Jesus said you shall KNOW the truth and the truth shall set you free.

-------

HOW you learn to KNOW is our discrepancy. Paul said it was through works of love, not bible study. Paul also said the most important theological debate of his day, one he was so charged about he wished his opponents would mangle their penises over, was not important but faith working through love was.... Gotta think PAUL had some thought behind such "atrocious" (by today's preaching's standards) theology.

================




As Christians we must have a combination of knowing and doing not one or the other. God bless you also!

--------

How you get the knowledge is the key, and what is knowing.




Spiritual growth is just that GROWTH not engineering. You can't engineer when you enter puberty, you can't engineer your spiritual growth. YOU CAN set the change with being mobile and applying things, but the most important lessons, scripturally, are through application, works, not study.




To teach people to search for study, rather than teach them how to live, is to lead them to fight God for control of their lives.




Really really. I can give 15 pages off the top of my head to back it up, which is unimportant, I just don't want to be dismissed as rambling here...

ReplyDelete







Kyle BaileyApril 3, 2015 at 3:52 PM


2 Timothy 2:15- "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, as a workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."




It's Biblical to teach people to study. It's also important to teach people to apply what they study. I have never advocated for one over the other but both. Study, and apply. Come to know, and put to action what you came know through the Word and the Spirit.

Reply







brad dickeyApril 3, 2015 at 4:00 PM


I don't know about you, but I'm not a BISHOP over a city as huge as Ephesus was. Ephesians 4 contradicts your interpretation. it says that the gifted leaders in the church, lead the people to works of service, through those works, they gain the knowledge that leads to spiritual maturity/perfection/teleios.




You've got a verse that says, SINCE yo uare a young leader of old more wise men, be prepared study to be approved.




It's not biblical to teach people to study. It's a distraction to lead them to a thirst for knowledge. Scripture says...




Knowledge puffs up.

Works build up.




God will save you if you understand how or not. You just gotta run that race, walk that walk, lead that life. It's not what you know, it's how you live that teaches you about things.




I can't help but notice, you avoided my specific points.




I'll assume that means you are done with me.




Shame, if you teach in a Seminary, we should expect more I'd think.




":(




Really, sorta sad.

ReplyDelete





Replies













Kyle BaileyApril 3, 2015 at 4:14 PM


Romans 12 tells all Christians to be transformed by the renewing of their minds. Like I said study and application. God told Israel to meditate on His word day and night, He also told them to apply it. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Btw seminary is for training Pastors so teaching them to study it perfectly appropriate.








Reply









brad dickeyApril 4, 2015 at 5:16 PM


Kyle, why do you not address the references I give when I give them?

Do you lack answers?

Or are you just that confident that I'm so insignificant my presentations do not even require consideration?

EIther way, it's one RUDE AS HELL thing to do.




So this will be my last post. I'm sure you are happy for that...




1) Two things, the "BE TRANSFORMED" and the "MIND" are going to be our focus here.




The Greek word for MIND, and the Hebrew word for heart, in the verse that says your heart of stone will be changed by GOD for one of flesh. The MIND/HEART issue are synonomous here. The changing is done by whom? God.




Every verse that addresses you not sinning, 1 john 3:9, 5:18; Gal 5:16 for examples, contribute the not sinning to GOD, not man. Who did the changing in that one?




Trials and Tribulations, how God trains you, comes through works, action in your life, not Bible study.




The training mentioned in Hebrews 12 is training HE gives you/us. NOT training we do for ourselves.




But, as a preemptive strike here, please, if you actually address these thoughts, answer, WHO parted the Red Sea?




Your options are GOD or Moses. The riddle is why did MOSES have to do work if GOD did the parting. OR Why did Moses not free His people earlier if he had that sorta power?




Spiritual maturity occurs during synergistic activities, not knowledge.




Knowledge puffs up, Works build up. You demonstrate the danger of the knowledge all through our conversation. You won't address my biblical references, just dismiss them. And blindly repeat the same argument, with verse after verse, which are shot down time after time, which you don't even acknowledge. You teach in a Seminary? YOu can't get a degree without a class in Hermeneutics in any Seminary I ever looked in.




Jesus corroborates this message, that maturity comes through GOD not man's study with the following message.

ReplyDelete







brad dickeyApril 4, 2015 at 5:16 PM


Blessed are the Poor in Spirit. Word for POOR means dependent, needy, requires assistance. You teach making a stronger spirit through knowledge. Jesus taught the NEEDY not independent spirit, got the blessing. You seem to think it's the opposite.




Then the Rich Young Ruler story...




Rabbi how do I get eternal life?

Jesus, keep the commandments, (And he gives some samples of which covenant he intends..)

RYR, I have kept them.

Jesus doesn't explain he does not keep them. (You'll give us the typical assumption on how the RYR didn't keep them, however it's no where in the text. Jesus raised a friend from the DEAD, you'd think it would be easier to keep this guy from dying...)

Jesus changes the topic, "If you would be perfect...." What does perfect mean again? Mature, developed...remember? Jesus switched the conversation with him, much like he did with Nicodemus. If you would be Spiritually Mature,

Jesus said, "If you would be perfect, give up your self providence, become needy, a pauper and come follow me..." WOW sounds like a physical example of being born again... Dying to the old self, being born to a new self that God leads...




Again, it's the dependence on HIM that is the change... NOT some knowledge he got.




2) John wrote that If you don't have proper love you know God and He don't know you. Agapao, requires action. Thus the KJV word Charity... But, the point is, without the proper love you aren't anything, saved, mature, even in a relationship with GOD.




Love requires action, reference Gal 5:6 again. Reference James 2, faith (working through love) is a requirement of slavation, and PROPER faith produces that action/love.




It's through the works/ application/ LOVE that maturity is found.




Lastly, if you get the LOVE right, you fulfill the law/commandments. If you wish to not sin any more, growing into the love is the answer, NOT learning more dogma.




I've given you plenty, and a comprehensive explanation. I gave a somewhat detailed group of references to start with, and was ignored.




Really, we can stop now. ONE more ignoring me and I'm likely to get aggressive and return insults for the insult you give me.

Teaching, or Agenda? GotQuestions.org

I have friends who get notices from GotQuestions.org.  It appears some of the answers they read seem incredulous to them, so they ask me to interpret.  I have written GQ.org more than once asking about their posts and/or requesting discussion.  I have consistently got varying attitudes from the "how dare you question us" arena.

Now, I'm not putting down all their answers.  But there are a good number that are highly suspect.  Just don't tell them about what you suspect makes them suspect.  That's where the fangs and claws come out.

So recently I tried again.  I started my note with my previous experiences.  Told them what I had a problem with.  And asked for a senior editor to discuss with.  I got, you guessed it, more of the same attitude.  So, I've decided to address them here.  I will post their words, and will show my responses within [[  here... ]] 
I have a problem with the liberties they take using scripture in their claims.  And the conclusions they draw are not nearly as sure as they present them.  They present answers that fit their agenda of theology and expect you to accept it prima facie.  And as all my communications has revealed, prima facie means you can't question their answers.  So lacking all the posts I've made to them through the years, I'll stick to this one article and not address the attitude of the place any more after this.  I only do it here, so that I can show I have tried to contact them one on one before going public with my protest.

Let us commence....[[   ]]

Question: "Is entire sanctification / sinless perfection possible in this life?"
Answer: The Greek word teleios (tel’-i-os) is used throughout the New Testament. It is often translated as “perfect” but can also mean “complete,” “full-grown,” and even “mature.” The confusion comes in when various translations use the word perfect instead of one of the other meanings.
[[We are good so far. :)  I concur. ]]

As an example, in James 1:4 Scripture says that we will be “perfect and complete.” But a further reading of the book shows that a better translation would be “mature,” because in James 3:2 we find that we all stumble.
[[Well, the first part is correct.  Mature would be the right answer.  However GQ doesn't offer any semblance of a picture of what maturity would mean and how that would not be sinless.  Rather than show you two sides and explain why they conclude what they conclude, you are given a dictate of what the answer is.  I find this extremely biased.  BUT, in the sake of competition I will do the same thing here and just show one side, thus providing balance. :) ]]

Obviously, we cannot stumble if we are perfect. However, the concept of maturity is compatible with imperfection.
[[Which is it?  Does PERFECT/TELIOO/TELIOS mean mature or doesn't it?  They told you it means mature, then tell you maturity =s imperfection.  If perfect is the opposite of imperfect, and perfect =s mature, then mature =/= imperfection.  The very problem they explain people have with the use of that word "perfect" confuses them, right here, in public for the world to see. 

This sort of liberty is taken thoughout the post in an attempt to tell you what to believe.]] 

First Corinthians 13:10; Ephesians 4:13; and Colossians 1:28 and 4:12 all should be translated as “mature” or “full-grown,” both of which fit in well in each verse’s context.
[[AGREED!  MATT 5:48 as well!  except complete would be better than mature, which would still be less confusing than perfect. ]]

As human beings we are still bound under the curse of Adam. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God.

[[This is not supoorted with scripture.  It is the theology of GQ.ORG and they impose that upon scripture.  Granted it makes logical sense.  So you could say someone not sinning is illogical, but what is logical about a 2000 year old dead and resurrected head of the Church? If we are to assume anything we don't understand or haven't witnessed is impossible, then we might as well throw the resurrection out first, right?  That's a very silly standard to apply.

Scripture doesn't say you will be bound forever, it says you will be freed from the curse by His dying on the tree.

Gal 3:13

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" --

Or 1 John 3:5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

All things considered, without any verse, OR conversation being found in the Bible that says you will be bound to the curse of Adam, for them to imply it's prima facie fact, offer no support for the claim, they prey on the innocent and attempt to subversively influence their studies.  ]]

The Apostle Paul scolded Peter for favoritism (Galatians 2:11-13).

[[And, showing favortism, or making a mistake is a sin?  No wonder it's presented as you will sin under Adam forever by GQ.org.  I'd suggest that we don't have the pay grade to judge if Peter sinned or not.  This is just a fear of sin based on a sin-centric theology, that teaches against 1 John 4:16-18/gal 5:6.]]

Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15).

[[He also said himself and others were perfect.  Or as GQ.org puts it, mature.  So, I guess finding out what Perfect or mature looks like would be important.  From the sins that Paul had committed, is it hard to imagine him considering them more rank than all other people?]]

Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were not perfect. [[Well, that's a lie. Paul said he was perfect 2.5 vss after they will present he said he didn't consider himself to have achieved that yet...  John said he walked in the light AS HE DOES, and there is no darkness in Him.  If you walk in the light AS HE DOES, either you do not sin, or HE does sin.   I would suggest that rather than face the possibilities of the wording in these author's works, they just searched for anything they could use to project their theology upon the less learned and innocent. ]]

How could you or I claim anything different?

[[Scripture says we are to be made perfect/mature.  Col 4:12  Jam 1:4  Paul says we are to be presented by Him to Christ at His return as perfect.  Col 1:28  So, if you want to preach what they Bible says, why would you deny these claims?

If they are going to accept that PERFECT means MATURE, then they should stop bouncing around from the modern English use of Perfect, they condemn in their "exegetics" as impossible, and read the verses with the MATURE or finished concept that we can agree upon? 

We might also see if we can find an explanation of what this word would mean in the minds of those writing these letters.... May I suggest, for your consider, the definition Paul describes? ]]

Ephesians 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

These are those with Gifts to lead the church.

 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service,

The fundagelicals will hate seeing that we are SUPPOSED to do work, and more importantly all that comes after this comes THROUGH this work or as a result of this work....

...to the building up of the body of Christ;

[[This would reference the Church.]]

 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith,

[[This would reference the individuals of the Church.]]

and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man,

[[Here is you word PERFECT in Kjv.  So, HOW PERFECT/MATURE are we to be????]]

 to the measure

[[If Christ's Maturity was measured in a glass, ours would be just as full as His is.]]

of the stature

[[Not only as full, but it would be the same size as...]]

 which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

[[[[[In case that picture doesn't work for you, point blank, FULLNESS OF CHRIST'S perfection/maturity.  So HERE is your definition of Xian Maturity.  Now if that would result in sinlessness or not is open for debate, but GQ.org won't debate it.  So, I present it here for you to have a counter to consider to their eisegetical push of their agenda.  For the record, if We are to be made as mature as Christ is, it's hard to believe that we would sin if HE does not.  So either we wouldn't, or HE would. 

It really doesn't matter if you believe it can happen, nor if you have seen it happen, we are discussing what the Bible reads.  Remember, the Roman Catholic Church, according to fundagelical leaders read what they WANT the Bible to say, not what it says.  I say we should hold ourselves to the standard of honoring what it says, not what makes sense to me.  God is a supernatural, or supranatural God.  What would make sense to me would be a huge step down in awareness for Him.  If it made sense to me, I'm surely messing it up somehow.   BUT FOR THE RECORD, I've never met anyone that raised from the dead and flew into the clouds either.  So, if we are going to apply "what we understand can happen" to the rules of biblical interpretation, we should all go home, that makes no sense at all, raising and riding the clouds....]]]]]

 14  As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

[[Maturity verified, not children but more mature...]]

15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
********************
True perfection will not come until the Rapture of the church, when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

[[Oh hogwash.  Paul said He and others were perfect..Got Questions.org is playing word games to meet their claims here.  1 thess 4:17 says no such thing...
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

IT DOES say we are to raise in the air.  It has nothing to do with maturity/perfection however.  In fact, it would imply that those who were left were those made mature, and He pulled them in the air for that reason.  This is a logically viable interpretation of the words.  To tie them together would be like dropping a verse from Peter, into Genesis 8 and changing the meaning... It's pure, unadulterated, eisegetics and wishful thinking, not to mention a HUGE reach to cross the chasm to try to link this verse with maturity/sanctification/perfection, etc...  JESUS WEPT would connect just as well. ]]


At this time we will receive a new body (Philippians 3:20,21; 1 Corinthians 15:54).

[[ What makes these verses link to the 1 thess verse?  Why didn't Paul explain this up there?  Because it's a reach of proof texting to make a point they believe but is no where in scripture.

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Nothing anywhere places this as an event linked to the 1 thes verse.  However if we WERE going to link it, you would see something like this.... 

WE WHO ARE ALIVE, would be those alive at the time of this event

WILL BE CAUGHT UP WITH THEM IN THE AIR, tie to the "our citizenship is in heaven"  This is the destination ideal of a believer.

ALWAYS BE WITH THE LORD, <<< destination.  (except he comes to earth for a 1000 years and we live for the resurrection, not heaven, but......details...)
The other verse says that HE will change us.
Isaiah says He changes our hearts and minds, on earth,
Eph 4 shows how much we are changed on earth, to be fully and completely as mature as Him.

So if I actually try to fit those two together, I end up with you will be sanctified/changed/MADE holy, vs perceived holy on earth before ascension.  And I would contend those are separate conversations and not linked.

The 1 cor 15:54 But when this perishable

(Our mortal body...)

will have put on the imperishable,

(Rom 8:9 Spirit of God, and the flesh nature is gone...)

 and this mortal will have put on immortality,

(Gal 2:20, it's no longer ME who lives (sinful nature col 2:11) but HE who lives in me (Spirit of God, rom 8:9.))

then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

(body of sin is death, body of the Spirit is life.... or according to the sin/ Spirit.. romans 8:5-7)

It's still talking about Xian maturity on earth.  ]]


We will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10)

[[For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. ********* 
Nothing ties this to the other verses, in the order it's presented.  They are totally Disparate conversations, plucked and pulled from here and there, willy nilly because they say warm fuzzy things that appear like the image they want to portray.  They are not all part of the same conversation, they are arrived at from totally different destinations and piecing them together with nothing to link them is irresponsible.]]


where our works will be judged and any rewards given (1 Corinthians 3:9-15).

[[This verse doesn't even remotely connect.  It's discussing your life on earth, and how you are to live it.  It's discussing the works you were saved to do, the works that MAKE YOU MATURE in Eph 4. ]]

We will then live forever and reign with Christ, in sinless perfection.

[[There is nothing to link those verses together, OTHER THAN THEY MEET THE AUTHOR'S NEEDS to justify their belief...  They are totally disparate in nature, linked only by agenda.  HOWEVER we see that if you are WITH CHRIST as the author ends with, you do not sin....
1j 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
And that we are called to be in Him on earth. 1 J 4:16.

We see if we are born of God, we will not continue in our sinful lifestyle, and in fact we can not sin.  1j3:9.

They would retort with a pedantic argument that makes the conversation very awkward if it was the intent of the author.  In short, before the conjunction in 3:9 you have a present tense, with a continuing sense to it.  So the lifesyle that is built for sinning, I.E. the sinful nature, or the life before the Circumcision done by Christ in Col 2:11 as listed above.  BUT after the conjunction, it's a HARD NEGATIVE, "OU" and a present tense for sin.  NOT SIN.

Now, the dilemma is, the Present tense CAN have the continual sense to it, and it can not.  Context defines it, not my preference of theology.  So, let's test the CONTINUING theory with the present tense verbs.... Let's use common sense....  If I said, "I went into the bushes and regurgitated" in the present tense.  Would that mean I was vomiting for the rest of my life?  What if I went to the bathroom, or I was swimming.  Of course not.  The pedantic argument for that continuing to sin for ever, doesn't pass the stink test as a rule that MUST apply.  And John makes MANY comments that would support it as it is written in English.

GotQuestions.org, bless their liddul hearts, try to help people find answers to their questions.  But in their fundagelical roots, rather than help you work out the answers, they tell you what they want you to believe, and try to rally the troops to their way of thinking. 

I find more times than not, their answers are short sighted and abuse scripture as shown above.

While I offered to debate them, and would love it on this topic.  I find their agenda is protected when they feel threatened like a turtle pulling into a shell.  Rather than admit to error, they would run and avoid the confrontation so no one can see they were wrong.  Much like the little geeky kid, threatening to whup the heinie of the big linebacker avoids the actual confrontation...



As an example, in James 1:4 Scripture says that we will be “perfect and complete.” But a further reading of the book shows that a better translation would be “mature,” because in James 3:2 we find that we all stumble. Obviously, we cannot stumble if we are perfect. However, the concept of maturity is compatible with imperfection.



First Corinthians 13:10; Ephesians 4:13; and Colossians 1:28 and 4:12 all should be translated as “mature” or “full-grown,” both of which fit in well in each verse’s context. As human beings we are still bound under the curse of Adam. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. The Apostle Paul scolded Peter for favoritism (Galatians 2:11-13). Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were not perfect. How could you or I claim anything different?



True perfection will not come until the Rapture of the church, when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At this time we will receive a new body (Philippians 3:20,21; 1 Corinthians 15:54). We will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) where our works will be judged and any rewards given (1 Corinthians 3:9-15). We will then live forever and reign with Christ, in sinless perfection.

Faith Works

 Man, if you use the word "works" in a sentence most forums will derail.  It's such a heated topic that it puts some ridiculous extremes on the table to consider.  The fact is you were saved for a purpose.  If you decline the purpose I'm not sure you can claim you ever accepted salvation.  

King Arthur has a horde of attackers from the North.  He Knights, Galahad, as Sir Galahad.  He equips him with weapons and armor.  He provides him a mount and a squire and some pages.  Galahad is now sent to the North to fight for Arthur King.  Galahad is thankful.  Look at all the beautiful gifts, the horse, the helpers, the finest weapons.... he even has an allowance that he is to share with the people to pay his own way and not be a burden on the people.  So, Galahad rides around the countryside, giving the money to pay his and his people's way, showing off his pretty bling, but never goes to fight the Northern Invaders.  When He runs out of money is the King going to replenish him as a Knight since he has not done the job he was Knighted to do? 

We are saved to do good works. 

We are His instruments of righteousness, or tools of righteousness. We are the means that He presents His love to the people through.  

God uses EVERYONE for His purpose.  His Will be done is a statement of fact, not a request we need make.  

There are two people in the Bible that didn't seek to be God's tools and God used them to accomplish His plan of salvation.  Judas Iscariot, whom we should thank God for every day.  And Pharaoh, whom we should also thank God for and probably pray for their souls every day.    They were used by God.  They were key players.  They did not seek out His plan for the world and seek to be part of it.  So God used them anyway.  Which is your role model you aspire to be?  (the question is to those who argue you aren't to do works...) 

So, regarding works, it seems to be a doctrine that goes something like this.... 

You are saved by Grace, through faith, not works, so you can't boast. 

If you have faith, you will have works. 

Thus. 

If you don't have works, you don't have faith. 
If you don't have faith, your claim to Grace is about like Galahad's to Knighthood above.... illegimate. 

Without Grace you aren't saved.  

Works don't save you.  But if you are saved you better have works.  You were hired on to be a tool.  Best be that tool. 

Through works God matures us spiritually and teaches us Spiritually.  Eph 4:11-17.  

So if you refuse to do the works you refuse spiritual growth. 

The word for love, AGAPAO/AGAPE requires an action be associated with it.  Those would be works. If there is no presentation/demonstration/action with the emotion, the claim to agape is a lie. 

If you don't love neighbor, He's not in you and you aren't in Him.  That person isn't saved as I understand it.  1 j 4:16-18. 

Not only is the sincere love that reacts with action important, but it must be complete.  Matt 5:48. 

Matt 5 is a discussion/lecture on how to love correctly.  Jesus explains His father, God loves even His enemies.  Not only that but that love manifests in providence for His enemies.  
Jesus commands you to love as completely as God the Father loves.  That means even to providence/action. 

Paul says the most theological argument of His day was not important but faith WORKING through love was. 

So, accept the free gift of salvation.  And realize you sold your sole to LORD Jesus, not Santa Claus Jesus.  Find the works/talents/gifts you have been given and put them in operation.  Only through acting on and applying your faith will you grow into what HE wishes you to mature to be. 

The Hubris of the argument for lack of belief.

I speak with many who claim a lack of belief in a divine power. I respect their views and find them more honest than many of the "believers" I speak with. Let's be honest, if we truly believed, or KNEW GOD, in that sense of knowing that is more than rationalization or proclamation, we'd throw ourselves down and be crippled by His awesomeness.

I mean "knowing" as in the greek word for "know your spouse" in the bible. An intimate, in depth, experienced, lived, felt, comprehended, trusted sort of knowledge. Heinline coined a phrase in "Stranger in a Strange Land", GROK. You can find it in most dictionaries I think these days. It meant to understand at an intuitive level. To "FEEL" it or be so familiar with it, it becomes assumed without question. I GROK the effects of gravity in my life. I KNOW, even though I can't put it into words how it will affect me.

I can't make that claim about God. I don't think you can either. Lots of folks will be offended, some will feign offense, and more will be threatened because they think that by claiming that belief, or knowing, of God gains them that eternal escape from punishment. They think if they question this, they admit to having no faith. I'd argue rather than wanting to grow in faith, they are wanting to claim a faith they don't yet have. But, that's not why I'm here. I don't mean to question anyone's faith, or their belief. I would encourage everyone to not rest smug with a proclamation of faith alone, however.

The Agnostics, Atheists, Agnostic-atheists, etc... that I've discussed God with nearly all come to a point where they make a point against the essence of the belief in the God I run the race to meet. It's something like this. "Don't you think, that to claim you are the ONLY faith that has it right, is a bit arrogant? Who are you to make a proclamation that you can't prove, and expect me to accept it?"

HEY! Let's be honest. That's a pretty honest and fair question.

A debate challenge, Christian Maturity

Resolved: That a person who has reached Xian Maturity, as a result, will no longer sin. Being sinless is not a measure of, but a result of Xian Maturity. Xian Maturity is a result of learning to love as Jesus commanded, exemplified as Matt 5:48.

Terms:
Perfect. Mature, complete, finished. I recognize the Utopian aspect of the English word perfect has only existed for a handful of decades and didn't exist in 1611 when the Greek word was translated to English.
Example, a boat can have flaws, but if it floats and does its job it is Perfect in the sense the Greek word is usually used.

Mature. Having been cured/grown/progressed/graduated to a finished state. A child is mature when they reach adulthood. A tree is mature when it produces fruit.

Romans 6:22 is a description of a process that one reaches Xian maturity.
Freed from sin/atonement = saved.
slave to God/ Obedience =trials and tribulations--discipline--training
receive a benefit = His seed, His Spirit, Him in you. 1 j 3:9, Rom 8:9, 1 j 5:18.
The benefit leads to sanctification. = Christian maturity,

Sanctification is used many ways. When saved you are "set apart" when mature you are MADE again, heart and mind adjusted by God. This is the made apart sanctification above and it has discernible benchmarks to lay claim to it.

While this is a process that you will do work to achieve, the work you do is like Moses holding the stick over his head to part the Red Sea. Who parted the sea, Moses and the stick, or God. Why did God make Moses hold the stick up?

The end result is more than a position, or how Christ looks at you, it is how you have been matured, quickened, made anew, actually regenerated. It is more than you want to do good, but by Him in you, your life is doing good.

Preemptive arguments

1 John 1:8 does not say you will sin forever. It says we all have sins on our person. Which is true for anyone but Christ. Only He lived a life free of sin. We are born to sin, and do sin until we are quickened/made mature. Also: John claimed to walk in the light AS HE DOES. And unless He sinned, if John sinned then he wouldn't be walking in the light AS HE DID.

Romans 7: 14-28ish. If that was Paul attesting to still having a sinful nature and committing sins caused by that nature of sin inside of him, then Paul was drunk, delirious, deliberately misleading in 7:5 when He said him and others were not in the flesh. One also has to ignore the hypothetical nature of the IFs you find in these verses. IF means maybe, not assuredly. If is conditional, not declarative.

Sinful nature til you die..... is contradicted in col 2:11 where it's removed by Christ in a circumcision which doesn't return/grow back.
Romans 8:9 that when/if the sinful nature indwells you, you are no longer in the flesh.
Gal 2:20 it's no longer me who lives, but HE who lives in me.

"Do you know anyone who is sinless/are YOU sinless".
If I am sinless or not is irrelevant when determining what scripture says. If I pass at that demarcation point or not, doesn't change what scripture says.

I don't know if I have met someone or not. I can't judge their hearts. And I have never met anyone that has been raised from a three day death, either, would you suggest we destroy the claim of our messiah because we haven't met them either?

I'll field any and all scriptures.
If you claim I'm taking something out context, back up your claim and show the context. Those will usually be long enough tangents to warrant their own discussion, however. I can put up about 85 pages of reasoning with scripture from all over the Bible to show it's a consistent corroborative message.

Another "posturing post" on Sinless perfection.

Ray, and coming in the clouds .org has posted some comments on Sinless Perfection.  Now I don't care what you believe.  I am responding to the exegetics of it, and sometimes the posturing attitude of the other author I respond to.  I have a tough time with those that pretend to know it all and expect you to say, OH WOW YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!

I ask that you examine the arguments I make to see if they COULD be true, before you investigate them to see if they are consistent.  You may find the argument I'm addressing here...
http://comingintheclouds.org/issues/sinless.htm

And here is the letter I gave Ray.
"Does the Scripture support such a claim? Can any man attain such a place ) and would his wife and children, or boss, or friends agree that he is perfect? The unqualified answer is no. "


http://comingintheclouds.org/issues/sinless.htm





You are right, you are unqualified to make that answer.

________________________



"The primary difficulty is the concept of the total depravity of man, a.k.a. the thorough inability of man. "



The problem with your statement is that Scripture doesn't say it's up to man to do. It's something GOD does. I'd have to ask you, do you not believe in God, or do you think He is incapable. Or, perhaps you never investigated this topic on both sides to see what is possible and what isn't. OR perhaps you are just addressing one or two people you have fallen across in your life. If both people were wrong, that doesn't make the position wrong. IF Wesley and Finney were both wrong, that doesn't make the position wrong. And I thought all things were possible through God. Isn't that what Christ said? Do you not trust him either?

_________________________

"beyond self-reparation. "

1) it's not up to self according to scripture.

2) your doctrine of total depravity isn't stated as such in scripture. It's determined from opinions of scripture. As a result, the opposite argument can be made and be just as scriptural.

_____________________________



"the Scriptures nonetheless support this doctrine"

I look forward to seeing them. :


What I see is man starts off broken and God fixes. It seems you seek an excuse to remain broken and not surrender it all to God. Which is the story of the Rich Young Ruler.

_______________________________

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5)"

AND Noah reconciled that issue. And after Noah you had Melchizedek, then Abraham, then ... and so forth. What the Genesis 6 verse is speaking of, was reconciled by God. It describes a pre Noah people. Not us today.

___________________

"The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, [I] try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings." (Jeremiah 17:9-10) "



God searches the heart, you do not know someone's heart, nor do I. God can try the reins, and rewards according to the fruit. With that heart, that God describes there, did he not also say...



Eze 11:19"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

Eze 36:26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Eze 36:27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

__________________________________

"These verses speak directly to the condition of the nature of man."

A nature, that Paul described in the last 1/3 of Romans 7, but stated he no longer suffered in Romans 7:5.



A nature that Romans 8:9 says is GONE IF the Spirit of God in dwells you.

A nature that Paul wrote was removed by a circumcision done by Christ at some point. Col 2:9

So if that nature that is inherently evil, no longer remains inside of you, what's your excuse.

____________________

"who restrains the evil of man were to cease from such restraint, man would indeed then be as bad as he could be."

Which is it, does God have restraint or not? Can man make God release constraint? Big man, right? Or as you put it would God have to cease from restraint?

. "My sheep listen to my voice: I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish: no one can snatch them out of my hand, My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29).

_____________________

"Though we try desperately to alter or to purify ourselves, we end up with the same problem; we are filthy with both the cause and results of sin, and there is no way to change that fact."

It appears to me, the more you build yourself up to be strong, the more you are fighting God for CONTROL. The rich young ruler was told if He would be perfect he must sell all of the things he built up for himself, and give it all away, and come to follow Christ TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON HIM! In other words, lose your self provided strength, and depend fully on Christ. I trust, a man of such a big and bold website as you have, would know what that word PERFECT means. If not check it out at www.blueletterbible.com.

And, don't forget, along with this position of mine, the verse, blessed are the poor in spirit. Poor meaning someone who requires help from others, can't provide for self..... Poor in spirit, admits they have a weak spirit and lives dependent on God accordingly.

______________________



"If the truth of the salvation program is known, that God has laid upon Jesus the iniquities of His people, and therefore through propitiatory intercession has designated all His people's iniquity to Christ, then God looks upon those who are born of God (see John 3:5) as never having sinned. "

It's true, that you have atonement for your sins, and GOD ignores your sins, as long as you confess them to God or a Spirit blessed man/woman. However, that doesn't interfere with John's statement in any way. And to claim it refutes it is silly. The option I will present will allow your statement to stand, as it's accurate to an extent, but show the rest of the story.

1 john 3:9, after the conjunction, says can not go on sinning. The NEGATIVE word in Greek is an absolute. The word for Sinning is missing the mark continuously. In other words 1 john 3:9 reads like this, If you are born of God you won't continue in the continuing sinful nature Paul discusses in Rom 7, in fact you can not sin anymore.



The problem only surfaces when you claim you are born again, before you are.

____________________________

"recalling 1 John 1:10, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

How does this say you will sin forever? It doesn't. It says everyone has sinned. JOHN 3:16 is the same comment. No one is denying that we have all sinned. The conversation is dealing with will we sin going forward.



I have a question for you, if John claims that to be in fellowship with God, you must walk in the light AS HE DOES, can you claim you walk in the light as HE does, and still sin, without saying HE sins? If John walked in the light as God does, John states unequivocally that he no longer sins. He's trying to help the people be in fellowship with God, they are atoned for but not yet in fellowship with God. And if you roll over to chapter 3 you see in vs 6 that John writes, if you still sin you haven't seen Him and do not know Him. <<<>>>

It's pretty consistent my way of reading it. YOU HAVE TO make silly claims like you did on 1:10 above.

___________________



""If we say `We have accomplished sinlessness' we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.""

Do you make a habit of adding words and editing the Bible to suit your theology? That's rather unfortunate. There is nothing about accomplishing a state of not sinning in the verse you paraphrase at all. As you said in the tense comment, it's about sins committed already, or sinning now. A sin you don't commit, can't be finished as your tense requires. :


___________________________

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23) "



Again, see 1:10 above, doesn't say you will sin forever. No one claims anyone but Christ was born and lived without sinning. There is nothing in that verse that shows you will arrive at a place that you do not continue to sin. And there is nothing that says GOD will fail if He intends to take you there.

_____________________________

"If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before [their] enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;" (2 Chronicles 6:36)

Seems to me the word "IF" there allows for someone that doesn't sin against Him. Every man has sinned. Plus at the time of Chronicles, the Spirit of God wasn't in the capacity it is in the NT, and that is the key to Paul's and John's claims on the topic.

_____________________________

"Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one." (Job 14:4)

So, your belief is GOD fails when He says He will remake us. Impressive, what an awesome God you have built for yourself. The great protector, but not mightier than you... very unthreatening.

__________________________________

"Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?" (Proverbs 20:9)

God says HE can do it in us. Do you doubt Him?

_________________________________

Again this is a confirmation of the inability of man to do anything truly good, that is, in a Godly (or perfect) manner.



"But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6)



????? Yes, you are born an unclean thing. God says numerous places I have shown you that HE will cahnge you and fix you. I've shown you the unclean part is removed by Christ, unless you find him a failure in His attempts, and the result is it's not me who lives, but HE who lives in me. Col 2:11 flesh is removed, romans 8:9 the Spirit of God indwells me, Gal 5:16 then I won't give into temptations of the flesh.



I'm sorry, but you haven't looked at the other side of this argument very fairly.

______________________________

Though we try desperately to alter or to purify ourselves, we end up with the same problem; we are filthy with both the cause and results of sin, and there is no way to change that fact.

It seems to me, you need to think less of yourself and what you can do, and learn to be Poor of Spirit. Only then, can you prevail. And it's not you prevailing, anymore than Moses holding the stick above His head is what parted the red sea.

____________________________

Is there an indication of the possibility of sinlessness in the earthly life? In 1 John 5: 18a says, "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not." A popular, but wrong interpretation is that if I am born-again, I will have no sin in my physical life and at that point we will be able to say "I am born of God."

Errr no. The more accurate reading of this would be, if I still sin, I am not yet born of God. That's the conclusion to draw here. Not use some empty claim to be born again, when that's is God's to determine, not yours.

_______________________________

The question you posed with....."O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:24-25)"

Is answered by Paul with....

Rom 8:9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

_____________________

You say...The flesh will serve the law of sin until the day of Christ,"



That isn't in scripture anywhere, especially in your commentary.

___________________________



What you have done, is an eisegetical assassination of a doctrine you refuse to consider. You have written it off before you studied it. I will provide a very simple, EXTREMELY short argument FOR sinless perfection.



You are born in life with a sinful nature, and it plays with you and controls you according to Paul.

You seek atonement/freedom from sin, then battle with obedience, and in that battle you receive a benefit <<<>>> and the benefit leads to sanctification. Rom 6:22.

The benefit is either Gal 5:16 the Spirit, or 1 john 3:9 His Seed, depending on the author. John probably didn't use the word Spirit because of the Gnostic issue he was sorta dealing wtih.

The sinful nature is removed at some point by a circumcision done by Christ, col 2:11.

And the Spirit of God then indwells you, Romans 8:9.

then, absent the flesh, armed with the Spirit, you no longer give into temptation. Gal 5:16.



I can make the same argument, errrr parallel arguments from Christ, and John. Whether you think that's what those verses mean or not is irrelevant, they COULD mean it. Until you take the horse by the reins and say, I'm going to understand this, you will never have an answer for it.



I don't claim to be the person I describe above. But, I fully defend that scripture claims it.

Gay marriage and the conservative right.

I'm a firmly rooted believer that Jesus the Christ was the Word made manifest, born from the womb lf Mary, named Joshua in his home and Jesus in the common town, who became the messiah, was blessed by the Spirit of God at 30ish, and led a three year ministry teaching, LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR, died, was resurrected, and ascended, guided the church in its establishment, trained his Apostles to perpetuate the growth, who trained others to carry on from them and so forth. 

I believe the Bible is a book with a perfect message.  That doesn't mean every word is literal.  For example, Sarx/Flesh/Sinful nature.  Taken literally is always tied to the human body.  This makes Paul and others animated, Dungeon and Dragon skeletons in Romans 7:5.  The message however, is a perfect message.  This means you have room for metaphors, analogies, and other tools to express the message.

With this in mind, Gay marriage should have already been adopted by the Christian Churches in America, and the outrageous, dehumanizing, attacks on the topic never have occured.   I certainly hope that was inflammatory enough to keep you here.  Now, for the reasoning:

There is no example to follow where Jesus, John, James, Timothy, Barnabus, Peter, Paul, John, Matt, Mark, Luke, etc... ever tried to force beliefs on anyone.  Their ministry was with the people.  Jesus didn't tell the village the woman at the well lived in to punish her.  He spoke with her, one on one. 

Paul said it wasn't his job to judge those outside the Church.

Christ said that we are to love our neighbors, who may be our enemies, as perfectly, or completely as God does.  God's love was described as being one that provided for them; not just tolerate them.  (The Church today does neither to GLBT communities.) 

That love provided necessities.  The word Agapao requires the providential, charitable, representation through action to even qualify as Agapao.  The opposite is happening in this discussion.

Christ said to the soldier and the tax collector, two very "unholy" jobs in that culture that they were to do their jobs for the government, just do them fairly.

We are to respect the government, they are God appointed.

Their role, like the tax collector and soldier above, sometimes require them to not function as a Church.  They have to protect all people they govern.  WHY THE HELL (for hell is the only reason you would...)do you try to impede them doing their God appointed task.

If you use Matt 5:43-48, a quote from the Christ, you are to love your neighbor, even your enemies, and not just a warm fuzzy love, but one that provides/takes action to demonstrate that love to them.

You who yell loudest, are the most unChristian among us.  You are also, the most unBiblical. 

But you are the most rabid, and vapid at the same time.

Please, I appeal to you, stop making God and His Church out to be such a fascist regime.  Talk about AntiChrist.  If CHRIST is the Church, that is to be God's instrument of love to the people, this action is anti Christ by every sense of the word.