For the record, Mr. Ms. Author, at any time you'd like to put me in my place on this topic, which is the definite "fever" and "attitude" I got from what you had to say below, I'm game. :) I'd love an educational debate in public on the topic. I'll address the comments below. The A.A. person will be in tinted background.
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw66.htm Can Christians be Perfect, Flawless or Without Sin?
By Anonymous Author
BIBLE: NO – Perfection cannot be humanly obtained. (Perfection = Sinlessness)
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23Yes, it's true every man has sinned, woman too, most kids, even my dog, but this verse doesn't say that they will continue to sin forever, does it? Every man has sinned, and was born with a sinful nature. But scripture doesn't say they live with it forever, in fact it says it could be the opposite of that.
Again everyone has sinned. It doesn't say you will continue sinning for ever. In fact this letter says the exact opposite. So you either need to understand this verse better, or make the other verse not say what the words in it say. 3:9, 5:18.
"If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:10
"The heart is the most deceitful thing there is, and desperately wicked. No one can really know how bad it is! Only the Lord knows!" Jer. 17:9, 10.Last I checked, in the life with Christ, at some point, He's going to replace that heart of stone with a softer one. So, while it's true you start with a deceitful heart, BIBLE says you aren't supposed to stay that way.
"The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who are wise, who want to please God. But no, all have strayed away; all are rotten with sin. Not one is good, not one!" Psalm 14:2, 3.I guess I'd just comment, Good thing that it's not based on OUR heart, but on HIS God's new creation of a heart. Which, if we look at in detail would result in a heart that no longer sins. But that's another topic...
"We are all infected and impure with sin. When we put on our prized robes of righteousness we find they are but filthy rags." Is. 64:5, 6.If you are a mature believer, it's not YOUR rags you wear, but it's HIS body that cloaks you. Your OT verses show the life before the resurrection well.
NOTE: Only one man was perfect and without sin—Jesus Christ
Note: Ephesians 4 says you are to become as mature as Christ Himself was on earth. NOT that you will have never sinned, but that at a point going forward you will be as Spiritually mature as HE was on earth. I guess this author would argue that Jesus sinned on earth, or that this verse is a lie. Because one of those options must be true, if you are as mature as Him but still sin.
EGW: YES--Perfection is possible through good works.
"As the Son of man was perfect in His life, so His followers are to be PERFECT in their life. A well-balanced character is formed by single ACTS WELL PERFORMED. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. . . . In all the redeemed host not one defect will be seen. . . . " The Faith I Live By, page 44,BIBLE: Christ has given us assurance that his yoke is easy:
"Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter." My Life Today, page 271
"The teaching that I ask you to accept is easy; the load that I give you to carry is light." Matthew 11:30As long as we attempt to attain a perfect character or we attempt to bear our own spiritual fruit, a Christ-like character will NEVER be an easy matter—it will be impossible to reach. However, Christ has given us assurance that his yoke is easy and his burden is light.
So, if HIS YOKE is light, why do you argue it can't happen? That's what you do here. To attain that "perfection" you don't do it by focusing on not sinning. You get there by focusing on love. the word for love, agapao requires the works, demonstrations of love/charity, or it's Phileo not agapaeo. Gal 5:6 theology isn't important but works of faith through love. Note the SHEEP that did the works went to heaven in matt 25's last parable. So, if your job is to LOVE NEIGHBOR, and you focus on love neighbor, then you grow in love. If you grow in love to the point that CHRIST COMMANDED in matt 5:43-48, what sin would you commit? It's just silly to claim there would be even one.
Now if you fear the judgment of sin, let me suggest that in 1 john 4:16-18 it says that imperfect love fears punishment of sin. So, your love is not yet perfected. You should focus less on what Ellen White has to say, and focus more on what you should do to grow in LOVE.
What would that be? In Ephesians 4, Paul says that through works, you grow in Spiritual Maturity to the full and complete, spiritual maturity that Jesus the Christ had on earth. I guess you propose Jesus sinned? Or you propose that Paul lied in those verses.
This assurance comes from the same Christ who does NOT expect us to recreate our own perfection, our own fruits, or our own righteousness.
I guess you never read where Jesus COMMANDED you to be as perfect in how you love as God the Father was. Matt 5:43-48. You are specifically backwards on this point.
He is the vine and we are the branches. Without Christ we can do nothing. NOTHING! (John 15:5)
So, if it's HIM that does all the work, why do you propose HE can't keep you from sinning? I guess in your belief God isn't omnipotent and you are more powerful and if you want to sin and He is your power and you choose to sin you can beat him and do it. That's brilliant.
Gal 5:16 if you walk in the Spirit you won't give into the temptation of the flesh. As you said, it's up to Him here. But your position says he must fail. Mine says He's capable of success. I'm sorry you see such a minor God.
NOTE: According to scripture, all humans are born in sin and commit sin. Hence, humans can never become perfect without claiming the perfection of Christ.
Now this doesn't even make since. We are all born in sin, and commit sins in our lives. But that doesn't in ANY LOGICAL FASHION imply that you will sin forever. It just doesn't. You are born in sin, with a sinful nature, you grow up in Christ, HE removes the sinful nature (col 2:11) and His Spirit indwells the spot vacated, (Rom 8:9) and you walk in the Spirit and don't give into temptations of the flesh, that is absent, Gal 5:16.
,
Christ’s perfection is freely offered since the cross. Before the cross, perfection from the sinful human nature was available through faith in the future promise of the perfect Christ. The lamb sacrifices and the annual day of atonement both pointed to the future cross.
Atonement, is salvation. This sinless thing you battle with is Maturation. That's what that word Telios means, it's usually translated as Perfect. Do a word study on the Greek word Telios. If you need help try www.blueletterbible.org, or www.bible.org. If you read romans 6:22 you'll see freedom from sin, atonement, is the first step. Then you battle with Obedience, and through those works are matured to full sanctification. If you want a more detailed explanation, some is explained below or feel free to contact me, I'd be glad to respond.
A human can NEVER commit enough "single well performed acts" to perfect a “well-balanced character” and thus open the gates of heaven based on their own good works.
Ephesians 4 says the exact opposite. It's not YOUR WORKS that balance your character. That is where you mess up your thinking. It's not about what YOU CAN DO, but what you let HIM do. And through the works HE teaches you to love as GOD the father does, and at that point, if you think you still sin, then you need to explain how God sins against himself.
Only Jesus can open the gate of heaven for any human. Ellen’s teaching is called "perfectionism" Perfectionism or salvation through good works is a dangerous heresy that is taught by Christian groups such as Catholics and SDAs.
It doesn't sound like she's saying you have to be perfect to get into heaven. It sure sounds like she is saying God will perfect you and sinless is a place you would end up. You are battling a huge strawman here.... That's intellectually dishonest and irresponsible.
Other similar Christian groups de-emphasize God’s free gift of grace and emphasize earning God’s merit through good works.
Your own words said it's through GOD that it happens. The parable of the VINE. We just bear his Fruit, we don't create the fruit. If we bear his Fruit and HIS fruit is maturity as much as HE was, which Christ prayed for in JOhn 17, and Paul attested to in eph 4, then who the heck are you to say it can't happen? You are the one selling Grace short, saying HIS GRACE and HIS CHANGES that HE makes in you, are inadequate.
Our sinful human nature and past sins will always make us imperfect.
That has nothing to do with anything Ellen has said, at least that you have shown. It also shows you hold a gross ignorance of the Greek word Telios. You owe your self the education before you stand on a soapbox and lecture people about being wrong.
If Ellen’s teaching of perfectionism is correct, our imperfect, defective, sinful, human condition would close the gate of the Holy City to every human being that has existed. Thank God that through repentance, and faith in Jesus, the gate can open up again!
Why do you believe GOD CAN NOT CHANGE YOU, and it all depends on what YOU can do? Do you believe there is no God? Or do you believe He's incompetent? Which is it?
EGW:
"We can overcome. Yes; fully, entirely. Jesus died to make a way of escape for us, that we might overcome every evil temper, every sin, every temptation . . . " Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 144.Every line is scripture. What's your problem. Do you not believe in scripture either? No where does she claim she's there, yet, in this. So what's your beef with her?
"Not even by a thought did He [Christ] yield to temptation. So it may be with us." Desire of Ages, p. 123.
"In order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning." Signs of the Times, March 3, 1898.
"To be redeemed means to cease from sin." Review & Herald, Sept. 25, 1900.
" . . . conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character." Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 505.
"Human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character." Acts of the Apostles, p. 531.
"Perfection of character is attainable by every one who strives for it." Selected Messages Vol. 1, p. 212.
BIBLE: NO--NO ONE IS PERFECT, NOT ONE.
NOTE: In the same year of Ellen's death, it appears as if she finally admits that no one is perfect but she continues striving for perfection through good works.
Which is what Paul coached. And Paul said IF you were perfect you should act/carry on as if you weren't. I don't know if you were spiritually mature that you'd notice any difference. That in itself would be sorta cocky and sinful. If HE makes changes in you, to you it will seem natural changes to you and not some immediate big difference, but a gradual unnoticeable thing.
Repeated, lifelong failed attempts to perfect her own character through her own effort is what she believes closes the gate of the Holy City on her.
So, do you assume she sinned forever? or do you have some Divine ability to judge her?
She apparently carries a heavy load because she sees absolutely no Biblical assurance of salvation for those whose faith remains in Christ Jesus. 1 John 5:13, 1 John 3:24, 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17.
I must have missed where you showed she felt that way. This assumes that you think she felt you had to be sinless to be saved. You never showed anything about that in her words. So you are being unnecessarily malicious, or incomplete at best.
We should obey God because we love Him. On the contrary, Ellen White’s motivation to obey God appears to be centered on perfectionism and the misconception that she has a great “WORK TO DO BEFORE” God will accept her performance and open the gate of the Holy City to His self-perfected child. Needless to say, heaven is NOT inherited by earning enough “good works” merit points.
Pacific Union Recorder, April 29, 1915, paragraph 7 & 8
Article Title: Further Word Concerning Mrs. E. G. White
"I do not say that I am perfect, but I am trying to be perfect. I do not expect others to be perfect; and if I could not associate with my brothers and sisters who are not perfect, I do not know what I should do. No one is perfect. If one were perfect, he would be prepared for heaven. As long as we are not perfect, we have a work to do to get ready to be perfect."Ellen apparently was quoting Paul, near perfectly in this. Here is the reference for you. :| The more I read of this, the more angry you make me. This is really a hate or fear filled vitriolic writing you authored.
Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on [fn8] so that I may lay hold of that [fn9] for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.15 Let us therefore, as many as are [fn10] perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep [fn11] living by that same standard to which we have attained.(NASB)
NOTE: Ellen admits she is imperfect but she continues working to become perfect.
No,she didn't admit she was imperfect. She didn't sit there and boast, I AM PERFECT. Huge difference, and not understanding the difference is why you'll never believe God can do this in you, because you will focus on the perfection, not on the love that creates the perfection.
She believes those who become perfect are the only ones that are ready to enter heaven.
At the Ellen White Estate Web site SDA apologists say Ellen never taught that we must be perfect before we can come to Christ. This statement is NOT accurate as it is obvious by the above listed quotes. Ellen claims that Jesus won’t come into our hearts unless we stop sinning and conversion is not complete until we attain a perfect character. Perfection before conversion is an arrogant, disregard of our desperate need of Christ perfecting atonement. Furthermore, Jesus’ inability to enter our hearts before we stop sinning would mean we have to stop sinning long enough to experience Christ entering our hearts and as soon as we made another sinful mistake Christ would leave our heart again until we took another break from sinful mistakes, repented and reaccepted Christ back into our heart. This Ellen White theology would promote a vicious cycle of conversion and reconversion or rebaptisms until a pastor gets tired of the repeated, weekly, public demonstrations of dying with Christ through baptism. The point is that Ellen taught the heresy of perfectionism through “performance/good works/acts well performed” instead of teaching perfection through faith in Christ alone.
SDA apologists who are drowning in denial face a grand challenge in denying Ellen White taught perfectionism. Many of her writings are saturated with a critical, judgmental, perfectionist mindset. To deny she taught perfectionism would mean that many of her published writings would need to be discontinued and much "White Out" would be needed to erase what has already been published.
We can never become perfect through our own effort. Our sinful human nature and past sins prevent us from living a perfect life. Christians can claim God’s perfection only through Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:21). Christians are perfect only through the one sacrifice that Jesus made. Scripture says this very clear:
"Because by one sacrifice he has MADE PERFECT FOREVER those who are being made holy." Hebrews 10:14You need to read your quotes slower, and you would look less silly in your comments.
Christ had to die, for us to be made perfect. Now, the word PERFECT has a meaning and it's used many times in many ways, talking of different things being perfect. You'd be better served following that and not focusing on the word PERFECT and cringing in fear because you aren't capable of it.
We are perfect in Christ alone so we cannot brag about "perfect" human efforts that will always fall short of Gods glory.
This doesn't contradict anything she said. In fact she would agree 100%
Salvation is not based on human perfection or on our performance. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone (Romans 3:23-24).
If you are saved by Grace through faith, not by works so no man can boast
And IF you have faith, you will have works.
THUS if you don't have works you don't have faith.
HOW could you claim to have Grace, when it's assured you have no faith?
That isn't saying works save you. But it's saying if you are saved you will have the works.
Just like batting a baseball. If you are a right handed batter, to bat lefty you have to practice over and over, or do the works, for the conversion to take place.
Ellen seems to be saying that you are to work on the works part, which is an inherent part of love your neighbor that cant' be left out and still claim the love btw, and by working on the works, God converts your heart and mind just as HE claimed he would do. Why do you think God must fail?
Perfectionists must realize that good works will NEVER earn them enough points to get into heaven.
And you have to admit you can't change your works by not working.
Grace is a free gift from God. Faith acts and works in response to professed Biblical beliefs. Real faith in Christ is the basis of salvation. Real love for God is demonstrated through obedience. Through the constant leading and empowerment of the Holy Spirit, we can accomplish God’s will for our lives. However, through one sacrifice Christ made it possible for us to become perfect in him and claim the righteousness of God through Him (2 Corinthians 5:21).
The heresy of perfectionism is so serious that two more quotes will be listed. David Seamands warned:
"Perfectionism is a counterfeit for Christian perfection, holiness, sanctification, or the Spirit-filled life. Instead of making holy persons and integrated personalities—that is, whole persons in Christ—perfectionism leaves us spiritual Pharisees and emotional neurotics." Healing for Damaged Emotions, p. 78.One of Adventism’s leading theologians, Edward Heppenstall, said:
"The pretension to sinless perfection at any time in this earthly life is the root of spiritual pride and self-righteousness . . . Salvation by grace alone means that absolute perfection and sinlessness cannot be realized here and now." Leaflet Is Perfection Possible?, p. 11, 12.
Perfectionism Under the Microscope
It may sound strange, but frequently a person with a poor self-image tends to be a perfectionist.It's called NARCISSISM
If you feel inadequate, unsure of other people's love, then you start saying to yourself, "If only I try harder, if I achieve more, if I'm a better person then I'll feel better about myself and other people will love me.
Perfectionism however, is NEVER SATISFIED!
It's burden is light. The reason is, the focus is on love, not on sin. The author of this is a very sin centric, afraid of judgement person who feels threatened that someone may be better than them. A perfect person, spiritually mature person, would never even look at it that way. They would be focused on the love, which requires work, and in perfect love there is no fear of judgement. This person cringes in the shadows, afraid to act to avoid sinning.
The rest of this person's diatribe was their preaching about having good self image and their views on God's desires. I'll leave that for them to worry about.
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